Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: This was another meeting at which I spoke extemporaneously and therefore have no record of my exact comments. Here is the gist of it: I asked Jason if he had read the information packets that I gave to the Trustees and Fiscal Officer at the May 30 special meeting. He had, and clearly had the opinion that there were other points of view about what was in the packets. [Anyone who wants the whole text can request them from Marie, but I intend to put the most important parts into the blog.]
I also asked Jason if he had thought about one year, five years, ten years from now, since he has said that those time frames need to be considered.
The elephant in the room is what is really going to be done with the school, and the only three options are to keep it and finish it as intended; to sell it; and to level it and put up a new building.
Selling the building gets the township "out from under" the "waste" that was harped on during the election, but makes no provision for the future needs and growth of the township. The township hall is already stretched to the max under some circumstances. Building a new building would cost at least $170 per square foot, meaning that 12,000 square feet--the size of the 1914 building--would cost over $2,000,000 and the building would be done for in 50 years. [If the amount actually already spent and the work already done that would be thrown away are waste, where is over $2million going to come from? And then do it all over again in 50 years? That isn't waste on a large scale?] An architect of my acquaintance said that commercial buildings aren't intended to last, but that a public building like our school is intended to stand for the duration of time. He commented that if nothing at all were done but the building was neglected, even if the roof fell in, the bearing walls would still be standing in another hundred years.
Matt Parsons and Larry Leitzow had no comment.
Phil Derthick: The cloth being put down on the roads: What is its name?
Jason did not really know.
Vic answered: There are several kinds, for different applications. At Old Taylor Woods, there was a complicated process and several layers. Geotex is the customary name.
Phil: On the website--A minor thing: the picture of Yogi Bear: Jellystone Park has not been that for a long time.
Dawn Pechman: I have some concerns about the records and the meetings. I know we have the right to attend and the right to hear and the right to be notified. I have trouble learning when special meetings are. I am concerned that we have to get records in a parking lot. [Marie has stopped letting people come to her house to get records, but arranges to meet people at the Township Hall to give them the records they have requested. She tries to get as many requestors as possible to come at the same time so that it is a more efficient process.]
Dawn, continuing: I have a right to records and the website is up. [The number of records Dawn has requested, at 10 cents per page, amounts to a fair amount of money over time.]
Mediation is a really neat thing right now. You do not have to go to court but can go to mediation for public records. [If a government entity is proven to have violated public records policy, the fine--and payment to the injured party--is significant. A person who could prove such a violation in suffcient numbers of records would make quite a haul.]
Meetings have gotten out of hand.
It is one thing to talk about the Center School use. . . .
[Sorry. I have trouble following both the logic and the content of Dawn's remarks. This was as much as I got.]
Steve Zelinski (sp?) had no comment.
Cal Brant: How big are the trailers? Jason: 20 by 42 feet.
Cal, continuing: About the Duration paint: People are having lawsuits because of issues. I don't know that we want to use that.
John Festa: The warranty on the paint is forever, but the warranty from the painter is 10 years.
Cal: I am suspicious about these warranties. I have been through this a lot.
John Festa: There are some other people concerned.
Cal: Who is going to be making a final decision? An engineering firm could give you concrete facts. For that kind of money to spend on the building, it would be well spent.
Dave Pollard: I looked at that north trailer and I would love to have it, but there is no way to get it out of there. As soon as someone puts in a bid to move it, I would be happy to pay the township for some of the contents. There are counters and cupboards that are easily removed. The wall skirting is all corrugated steel and I have a use for that. IF you are agreeable to that, I will give you this proposal afterwards.
Has the township bought a sickle-bar mower to do roadsides?
Vic: We have not had one of those for quite a few years.
Dan Cozzens: Is the meeting on Saturday public? (Yes.) Also--the trash outside the trailer: Has it been there since June 2?
Jason: It has been there for a couple of weeks. The scene has changed quite a few times.
Vic: Some things have gone, and some things have come back.
At 9:25 a motion was made to pay the bills. To all intents and purposes, most meetings are pretty much over at that point.
Sunday, July 29, 2012
Thursday, July 26, 2012
Trustees, 7-18-12; Painting Town Hall; environmental inspection, school
In regard to painting the town hall, John Festa had estimates ([rom several months ago, I believe], and Vic had looked at the cupola.
Vic discovered 3-4 pieces of wood in the shutters that were bad; all the rest looked to be in good shape.
In regard to the paint peeling off the building, one of the people who came to look at the building asked if there had been any changes made to it. There had: the NOPEC grant made it possible to replace windows, which tightened up the whole building. As a result, the moisture cannot escape, and [as I understand it] it works its way out through the wood and then pushes the paint off the siding.
The building needs to be ventilated before anything else is done, or painting will not do any good. Also, Vic asked about getting a much better dehumidifier, one that would run constantly.
One of the people Vic talked with recommended against using Sherwin Williams Duration paint--many people use it because of the lifetime warranty, but it does not last.
Everyone who has looked at the building with Vic has said that we need to handle the ventilation before doing anything else. There were a number of suggestions, ranging from doors on the shutters that could be opened or closed at different times of year to an attic fan, dehumidifier, and possibly a vapor barrier. Roof vents would interfere with the historical aspect of the building.
All of the recommendations come back to getting rid of the moisture. No matter what is done, it will take time and we must get rid of the moisture. Without proper ventilation, the same problem will reoccur whether the building is painted or stained.
John Festa had talked to Scott [last name?], who gave one of the estimates and has done historic work. His quote was not very clear about the cupola but would apparently replace up to 8 boards. He is giving a 10-year warranty on the Duration paint, and he has been in business for a number of years. The building is definitely in need of attention. It is getting close to August and we need to take some drastic steps.
Jason asked if quotes on ventilation could be gotten by the next meeting. He thought that we may not need to ventilate every window.
John Festa said that a couple of concerned citizens want to lend their knowledge to the project.
Vic thought that a commercial dehumidifier could be gotten for under $300.
In regard to the Land Bank project to identify blighted properties, there is a procedure that the Land Bank will handle. Jason said there would be no onus on the Township, and the buildings in question are decrepit and are not lived in. [Some do still have living owners.]
There was discussion about microsurfacing various roads. Jason ran through a long list, and Vic asked for a copy of the list.
John Festa, old business: I wanted to finish up with the purchasing policy. I would lilke everyone to take a look at it and discuss it at the next meeting. I think it is an important piece of paper to have to give us some transparency with the people's money and I would like to get it approved.
[Blogger: If you are curious about all of this, you might contact Marie and learn what procedures, safe-guards, and fail-safes she has had in place for years.]
John Festa also asked about bids from the environmental people: Vic, did you ever give us any bids submitted?
Vic: Diamond Environmental gave us a bid. The other gentleman said that the best thing is to have a meeting and see what had to be done.
Then Vic asked Jason about a meeting with Littleton Kirkpatrick. [Blogger: I am not sure that the meeting would ever have been mentioned if Vic had not asked.]
John Festa: After we have this meeting, could we have some bids?
Vic: I have the one and the other one, we can have him come back out. I think the best thing is to have this meeting and then go forward.
Jason: This is a contractor with lots of experience in old buildings. The meeting will be at 9:30 a.m. in the school on Saturday, 7/21. We will discuss different options. Ask the expert. That is our next step.
[This is, of course the meeting that wasn't. Stay tuned. Better yet, come to the next meeting, which is August 2, 7:30 p.m., in the Township Hall.]
Vic: This is a special meeting: are you going to post something?
Jason: Yes. [Blogger's note: Someone asked about the length of the meeting, since there was a memorial service for a recently deceased resident scheduled for the Mantua Center Church on Saturday. Jason responded that he had an obligation at 11:00, and so the meeting would end before that.]
Jason then made some introductory remarks before opening public comment: The meetings after public comment have gotten out of hand. Folks are confronting each other and not the issues. I do not think that is the correct approach. We will have disagreements and opinions, but they need to be spoken in a certain way.
I don't have a timer. If you have lengthy comments or questions, please choose. Then give us a call if there is anything else. [And so part of government will go on behind the scenes.]
I should not have to tell everyone this. Jason then read from the Sunshine Laws the passage that the right to attend a meeting does not include the right to comment at a meeting.
[Blogger: Use of a timer was discontinued at the beginning of this year, which means, of course, that no one knows how long his or her comment will be permitted to continue or when it will be cut off or for what reason. This policy has been in effect long enough, however, to suggest that if the remarks get too close to being critical or demanding accountability, they get terminated. I attended Aurora City Council meetings for some time, and people there had a set time to speak, whether they were praising or criticizing, and regardless of what the councilmen thought of the speaker. The set time limit is a tiny but meaningful example of the rule of law. Ending a speaker's remarks whenever the chair decides to is an example of the rule of men. The difference is significant.
In my opinion, requiring courtesy if nothing else would be a good step--but courtesy has been in short supply for a long time now.]
The next and final post for this meeting will be public comment.
Vic discovered 3-4 pieces of wood in the shutters that were bad; all the rest looked to be in good shape.
In regard to the paint peeling off the building, one of the people who came to look at the building asked if there had been any changes made to it. There had: the NOPEC grant made it possible to replace windows, which tightened up the whole building. As a result, the moisture cannot escape, and [as I understand it] it works its way out through the wood and then pushes the paint off the siding.
The building needs to be ventilated before anything else is done, or painting will not do any good. Also, Vic asked about getting a much better dehumidifier, one that would run constantly.
One of the people Vic talked with recommended against using Sherwin Williams Duration paint--many people use it because of the lifetime warranty, but it does not last.
Everyone who has looked at the building with Vic has said that we need to handle the ventilation before doing anything else. There were a number of suggestions, ranging from doors on the shutters that could be opened or closed at different times of year to an attic fan, dehumidifier, and possibly a vapor barrier. Roof vents would interfere with the historical aspect of the building.
All of the recommendations come back to getting rid of the moisture. No matter what is done, it will take time and we must get rid of the moisture. Without proper ventilation, the same problem will reoccur whether the building is painted or stained.
John Festa had talked to Scott [last name?], who gave one of the estimates and has done historic work. His quote was not very clear about the cupola but would apparently replace up to 8 boards. He is giving a 10-year warranty on the Duration paint, and he has been in business for a number of years. The building is definitely in need of attention. It is getting close to August and we need to take some drastic steps.
Jason asked if quotes on ventilation could be gotten by the next meeting. He thought that we may not need to ventilate every window.
John Festa said that a couple of concerned citizens want to lend their knowledge to the project.
Vic thought that a commercial dehumidifier could be gotten for under $300.
In regard to the Land Bank project to identify blighted properties, there is a procedure that the Land Bank will handle. Jason said there would be no onus on the Township, and the buildings in question are decrepit and are not lived in. [Some do still have living owners.]
There was discussion about microsurfacing various roads. Jason ran through a long list, and Vic asked for a copy of the list.
John Festa, old business: I wanted to finish up with the purchasing policy. I would lilke everyone to take a look at it and discuss it at the next meeting. I think it is an important piece of paper to have to give us some transparency with the people's money and I would like to get it approved.
[Blogger: If you are curious about all of this, you might contact Marie and learn what procedures, safe-guards, and fail-safes she has had in place for years.]
John Festa also asked about bids from the environmental people: Vic, did you ever give us any bids submitted?
Vic: Diamond Environmental gave us a bid. The other gentleman said that the best thing is to have a meeting and see what had to be done.
Then Vic asked Jason about a meeting with Littleton Kirkpatrick. [Blogger: I am not sure that the meeting would ever have been mentioned if Vic had not asked.]
John Festa: After we have this meeting, could we have some bids?
Vic: I have the one and the other one, we can have him come back out. I think the best thing is to have this meeting and then go forward.
Jason: This is a contractor with lots of experience in old buildings. The meeting will be at 9:30 a.m. in the school on Saturday, 7/21. We will discuss different options. Ask the expert. That is our next step.
[This is, of course the meeting that wasn't. Stay tuned. Better yet, come to the next meeting, which is August 2, 7:30 p.m., in the Township Hall.]
Vic: This is a special meeting: are you going to post something?
Jason: Yes. [Blogger's note: Someone asked about the length of the meeting, since there was a memorial service for a recently deceased resident scheduled for the Mantua Center Church on Saturday. Jason responded that he had an obligation at 11:00, and so the meeting would end before that.]
Jason then made some introductory remarks before opening public comment: The meetings after public comment have gotten out of hand. Folks are confronting each other and not the issues. I do not think that is the correct approach. We will have disagreements and opinions, but they need to be spoken in a certain way.
I don't have a timer. If you have lengthy comments or questions, please choose. Then give us a call if there is anything else. [And so part of government will go on behind the scenes.]
I should not have to tell everyone this. Jason then read from the Sunshine Laws the passage that the right to attend a meeting does not include the right to comment at a meeting.
[Blogger: Use of a timer was discontinued at the beginning of this year, which means, of course, that no one knows how long his or her comment will be permitted to continue or when it will be cut off or for what reason. This policy has been in effect long enough, however, to suggest that if the remarks get too close to being critical or demanding accountability, they get terminated. I attended Aurora City Council meetings for some time, and people there had a set time to speak, whether they were praising or criticizing, and regardless of what the councilmen thought of the speaker. The set time limit is a tiny but meaningful example of the rule of law. Ending a speaker's remarks whenever the chair decides to is an example of the rule of men. The difference is significant.
In my opinion, requiring courtesy if nothing else would be a good step--but courtesy has been in short supply for a long time now.]
The next and final post for this meeting will be public comment.
Monday, July 23, 2012
July 18 Trustees Meeting, Part 1
Jason called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The usual opening procedures were followed, including reviewing and dealing with 4 sets of minutes.
For the Ladies Cemetery Association, Amy Janca and Barb Herbold are watering and and watering. They thanked the trustees for the new sign.
Trustees Reports:
Jason brought up various things about the roads, focused mostly on repairs at Old Taylor Woods. The repair would require tearing out the deteriorated area and redoing it, but that is very costly. Jason mentioned a matting used for this kind of work. It is $600 per roll.
Vic commented that the area had been dug out and repaired with limestone and mat, of which some was left. There is a lot of clay right there, and it is pushing up through everything. The Township also installed a lot of drainage pipe there, but that is not an issue this year, of course.
Jason: The website is up and in progress, a piece at a time. He wants the Zoning Commission and BZA to provide photographs.
The official Mantua Township website is at
mantuatownshipohio.gov
Jason asked Marie some questions about the insurance. See the official minutes for that information, if you want it.
John Festa asked about e-mail addresses on the website. [I believe that the e-mail addresses on the website are the Trustees Township e-mail addresses, not their personal addresses.]
John Festa went on to discuss the repairs on the Stirling truck, which he thought should be paid for at least in part by the business which had worked on the truck and had apparently broken something. [Note: The part or place in question was aluminum, with iron or steel having to be attached to it. The aluminum is much softer than the other metal and therefore vulnerable. Do any car guys out there remember aluminum-head engines during the '60's? Changing spark plugs was an exercise in delicacy, and even the most careful mechanic could mess something up.]
John Festa: I was thinking about calling the company and asking them to pay it. If they will not, then I think we should send the issue to Chris Meduri. We paid for the part and paid Brian Tayerle to fix it, and we paid the shop to recharge the air conditioner. The total looks to be about $1200.
There was more discussion about the trailers, and the one that had contained pre-school supplies. The issue of the contents being disposed of and placed outside was discussed. John Festa is going to do something about it.
Then he raised an issue about a driveway on Skinner Road that has had a very abrupt lip on it since the paving project last summer. There were about 25 driveways that had to have work done afterwards, and this one is the biggest problem because the asphalt was laid on top of cement there.
There was discussion about a secretary for the Board of Zoning Appeals. Keith Barton and Sandy Engelhart have both expressed interest in it.
John Festa, to Marie Stehli: Marie, I asked you for some contracts. Do you have them for me?
Marie: Yes. I have been anxiously waiting to give them to you.
Vic reported on the paving project on S.R. 44 north of Mantua Corners. Originally it had looked like a minor project, but now the road is going to be closed except to local traffic (according to the signs that are now up) for 14 days. Traffic is going to be routed onto Crackel to Mantua Center Road and back to Winchell.
Vic reported that the copper wire had been removed from the trailers and could be sold for scrap. He asked for approval to scrap it and turn turn the proceeds back into the school fund. It looks as if it will be a couple of hundred dollars. He made a motion to that effect.
John Festa: The people I thought were interested in the trailer are not interested. I may not want to be too hasty about putting the money into the school fund. We may have to use the income from the wire to move the trailers.
Vic: The school fund I am talking about is a maintenance fund.
Jason seconded the motion.
Vic added that one person had come and looked at the trailers. [I do not know whether a vote ended up being taken on the motion or whether it died.]
Tim Benner came on Sunday, checked the alarm system, and had problems with it. [The outcome of all of this is that Tim's price for the necessary items is considerably less than if the Township purchased everything.] The alarm system at the school was mentioned also. The rate for a technician is about $83.00 per hour. The total will come to about $250.00. There was a bit more discussion and then a motion was made, seconded, and passed to replace the batteries and do a walk-through.
Then there was discussion about Pioneer Trail and how to deal with that paving project. This involved the configuration of different types of drainage pipe and the height of the road.
John Festa wanted to be sure that our road crew and equipment would be used, and Vic said that it had already been spec'd into the project--as has been customary for us.
John Festa: So we can begin in September?
Vic: Oh, no. We are ready sooner.
There was more discussion about the road and its blocking water. Vic said that when the pipe is full now, the water backs up and goes over the road. But in the area in question, there are no driveways, so he does not know what the problem is there. (JF had said that someone had called about raising the road surface and dumping water on their property.)
Vic said he would work on that and would make sure that our crew was there. Part of it will have to be hand dug.
Vic also said that under Old Business, he had some valuable information regarding the painting at the Township Hall.
There was more about the Pioneer Trail paving project, including bid books that Vic handed out to Marie, Jason, and John Festa. Vic: It would be nice if Brian Tayerle had one, if one of you could give him one.
More on the north trailer at the school. John Festa said that the person he talked to lost interest upon looking at the trailers. He also thought it would be a real mess to tear them apart on the property, and Vic added that that would be a big mistake.
Jason said he would accept all ideas.
[Blogger: This is a reasonable place to end this section, since what follows is a rather detailed discussion about the condition of the paint at the Township Hall.]
For the Ladies Cemetery Association, Amy Janca and Barb Herbold are watering and and watering. They thanked the trustees for the new sign.
Trustees Reports:
Jason brought up various things about the roads, focused mostly on repairs at Old Taylor Woods. The repair would require tearing out the deteriorated area and redoing it, but that is very costly. Jason mentioned a matting used for this kind of work. It is $600 per roll.
Vic commented that the area had been dug out and repaired with limestone and mat, of which some was left. There is a lot of clay right there, and it is pushing up through everything. The Township also installed a lot of drainage pipe there, but that is not an issue this year, of course.
Jason: The website is up and in progress, a piece at a time. He wants the Zoning Commission and BZA to provide photographs.
The official Mantua Township website is at
mantuatownshipohio.gov
Jason asked Marie some questions about the insurance. See the official minutes for that information, if you want it.
John Festa asked about e-mail addresses on the website. [I believe that the e-mail addresses on the website are the Trustees Township e-mail addresses, not their personal addresses.]
John Festa went on to discuss the repairs on the Stirling truck, which he thought should be paid for at least in part by the business which had worked on the truck and had apparently broken something. [Note: The part or place in question was aluminum, with iron or steel having to be attached to it. The aluminum is much softer than the other metal and therefore vulnerable. Do any car guys out there remember aluminum-head engines during the '60's? Changing spark plugs was an exercise in delicacy, and even the most careful mechanic could mess something up.]
John Festa: I was thinking about calling the company and asking them to pay it. If they will not, then I think we should send the issue to Chris Meduri. We paid for the part and paid Brian Tayerle to fix it, and we paid the shop to recharge the air conditioner. The total looks to be about $1200.
There was more discussion about the trailers, and the one that had contained pre-school supplies. The issue of the contents being disposed of and placed outside was discussed. John Festa is going to do something about it.
Then he raised an issue about a driveway on Skinner Road that has had a very abrupt lip on it since the paving project last summer. There were about 25 driveways that had to have work done afterwards, and this one is the biggest problem because the asphalt was laid on top of cement there.
There was discussion about a secretary for the Board of Zoning Appeals. Keith Barton and Sandy Engelhart have both expressed interest in it.
John Festa, to Marie Stehli: Marie, I asked you for some contracts. Do you have them for me?
Marie: Yes. I have been anxiously waiting to give them to you.
Vic reported on the paving project on S.R. 44 north of Mantua Corners. Originally it had looked like a minor project, but now the road is going to be closed except to local traffic (according to the signs that are now up) for 14 days. Traffic is going to be routed onto Crackel to Mantua Center Road and back to Winchell.
Vic reported that the copper wire had been removed from the trailers and could be sold for scrap. He asked for approval to scrap it and turn turn the proceeds back into the school fund. It looks as if it will be a couple of hundred dollars. He made a motion to that effect.
John Festa: The people I thought were interested in the trailer are not interested. I may not want to be too hasty about putting the money into the school fund. We may have to use the income from the wire to move the trailers.
Vic: The school fund I am talking about is a maintenance fund.
Jason seconded the motion.
Vic added that one person had come and looked at the trailers. [I do not know whether a vote ended up being taken on the motion or whether it died.]
Tim Benner came on Sunday, checked the alarm system, and had problems with it. [The outcome of all of this is that Tim's price for the necessary items is considerably less than if the Township purchased everything.] The alarm system at the school was mentioned also. The rate for a technician is about $83.00 per hour. The total will come to about $250.00. There was a bit more discussion and then a motion was made, seconded, and passed to replace the batteries and do a walk-through.
Then there was discussion about Pioneer Trail and how to deal with that paving project. This involved the configuration of different types of drainage pipe and the height of the road.
John Festa wanted to be sure that our road crew and equipment would be used, and Vic said that it had already been spec'd into the project--as has been customary for us.
John Festa: So we can begin in September?
Vic: Oh, no. We are ready sooner.
There was more discussion about the road and its blocking water. Vic said that when the pipe is full now, the water backs up and goes over the road. But in the area in question, there are no driveways, so he does not know what the problem is there. (JF had said that someone had called about raising the road surface and dumping water on their property.)
Vic said he would work on that and would make sure that our crew was there. Part of it will have to be hand dug.
Vic also said that under Old Business, he had some valuable information regarding the painting at the Township Hall.
There was more about the Pioneer Trail paving project, including bid books that Vic handed out to Marie, Jason, and John Festa. Vic: It would be nice if Brian Tayerle had one, if one of you could give him one.
More on the north trailer at the school. John Festa said that the person he talked to lost interest upon looking at the trailers. He also thought it would be a real mess to tear them apart on the property, and Vic added that that would be a big mistake.
Jason said he would accept all ideas.
[Blogger: This is a reasonable place to end this section, since what follows is a rather detailed discussion about the condition of the paint at the Township Hall.]
Saturday, July 21, 2012
(Non)Meeting at School 7-21-12
It is possible to exceed the speed of light, I believe. It's via the grapevine. So a number of people besides the ones who showed up at the school may already know this.
When people showed up at the Mantua Center School for a special meeting to go through the first floor with the Trustees and Restoration Contractor Littleton Kirkpatrick, they found this notice on the door of the gymnasium/annex:
Public Notice
The Meeting that was going to be scheduled for Saturday July 21st, 2012 in the Mantua Center School is being cancelled.
As chairman I did not provide ample notification of the meeting on the bulletin board and take full responsibility for that. A reschedule will be forthcoming with the specified contractor and ample notice will be given.
Jason Carlton
Mantua Township Trustee
330-274-2649
For a special meeting, which this was, the lead time required for notification is 24 hours.
Here is what I know of the timeline leading up to this morning.
On Wednesday morning a resident who had heard of the meeting and had misgivings about how well publicized it would be called and asked me to get it onto the blog. I thought it would be better to wait until after the meeting that evening so that a proper announcement would have the chance to be made.
At the Trustees meeting, Jason announced the meeting after Vic asked him if he was going to do that.
Vic reminded Jason of how that announcement should be done and how much lead time was required. If I remember this procedure correctly, the information has to be posted on the bulletin board outside the Township Hall 24 hours before the time of the meeting.
Because the Trustees meeting this week was on Wednesday, there was a 36-hour window in which to get the information onto the bulletin board. A handwritten statement posted when the meeting was adjourned would have been sufficient.
About 25 or 26 people showed up for the meeting.
One of the residents said, regarding the statement about taking responsibility, that it was the first time Jason had actually stepped up to the plate in that respect.
Another said that if Jason had really taken full responsibility, he would have been there.
Vic was there. He is always there.
When people showed up at the Mantua Center School for a special meeting to go through the first floor with the Trustees and Restoration Contractor Littleton Kirkpatrick, they found this notice on the door of the gymnasium/annex:
Public Notice
The Meeting that was going to be scheduled for Saturday July 21st, 2012 in the Mantua Center School is being cancelled.
As chairman I did not provide ample notification of the meeting on the bulletin board and take full responsibility for that. A reschedule will be forthcoming with the specified contractor and ample notice will be given.
Jason Carlton
Mantua Township Trustee
330-274-2649
For a special meeting, which this was, the lead time required for notification is 24 hours.
Here is what I know of the timeline leading up to this morning.
On Wednesday morning a resident who had heard of the meeting and had misgivings about how well publicized it would be called and asked me to get it onto the blog. I thought it would be better to wait until after the meeting that evening so that a proper announcement would have the chance to be made.
At the Trustees meeting, Jason announced the meeting after Vic asked him if he was going to do that.
Vic reminded Jason of how that announcement should be done and how much lead time was required. If I remember this procedure correctly, the information has to be posted on the bulletin board outside the Township Hall 24 hours before the time of the meeting.
Because the Trustees meeting this week was on Wednesday, there was a 36-hour window in which to get the information onto the bulletin board. A handwritten statement posted when the meeting was adjourned would have been sufficient.
About 25 or 26 people showed up for the meeting.
One of the residents said, regarding the statement about taking responsibility, that it was the first time Jason had actually stepped up to the plate in that respect.
Another said that if Jason had really taken full responsibility, he would have been there.
Vic was there. He is always there.
Thursday, July 19, 2012
Consultant walk-through at school, 7-21-12
At the Mantua Township Trustees meeting on Wednesday, July 18, Jason Carlton announced a special meeting scheduled for 9:30a.m. on this Saturday, July 21, at the Mantua Center School building.
Purpose: To have a qualified historical preservation consultant inspect for [blogger's understanding] lead paint, primarily, and possibly asbestos. Jason did not state whether mold would be considered, if I remember correctly. That issue had been addressed in June when two different environmental companies had people do a walk-through, but addressing these issues has not done much to stop the insistence that inspection after inspection has been insufficient.
The consultant is Littleton Kirkpatrick III, who has worked on the Mormon Village in Kirtland; the restoration of the Johnson Farm on Pioneer Trail; and, most recently, the dismantling and reconstruction of the Mecca Meeting House, which is now the Garfield Institute in Hiram. He is a Restoration Contractor.
This is the ideal opportunity for everyone who has been exasperated or bewildered by all of the conflicting assertions about hazardous materials in the school building to hear first hand what a qualified person has to say about the building.
We can only hope that his findings and remarks, based on education and a lifetime of experience, will finally quell the opinions of people with less or no experience.
This is important. Please come.
Purpose: To have a qualified historical preservation consultant inspect for [blogger's understanding] lead paint, primarily, and possibly asbestos. Jason did not state whether mold would be considered, if I remember correctly. That issue had been addressed in June when two different environmental companies had people do a walk-through, but addressing these issues has not done much to stop the insistence that inspection after inspection has been insufficient.
The consultant is Littleton Kirkpatrick III, who has worked on the Mormon Village in Kirtland; the restoration of the Johnson Farm on Pioneer Trail; and, most recently, the dismantling and reconstruction of the Mecca Meeting House, which is now the Garfield Institute in Hiram. He is a Restoration Contractor.
This is the ideal opportunity for everyone who has been exasperated or bewildered by all of the conflicting assertions about hazardous materials in the school building to hear first hand what a qualified person has to say about the building.
We can only hope that his findings and remarks, based on education and a lifetime of experience, will finally quell the opinions of people with less or no experience.
This is important. Please come.
Wednesday, July 18, 2012
Playing Catch-up: June 21 Trustees
You may or may not have seen an earlier post under the same title as this one, in which I ruefully said that I had lost it. I simply cannot take another 2-1/2 to 3 hours to recreate the lost one, so this will be a summary similar to the one for the 7/2 walk-through of the school. Mostly.
On June 21, the Township's insurance agent met with the trustees and the fiscal officer. See the minutes for that information if you want it.
The deadline for Aurora Meadows residents to sign on to the sewer line project for only $240 has now passed; the fee now will be $8,000. Residents have had a year and a half to sign on.
There was discussion about a resident on Old Frost Road, which is not paved, having asked about whether something could be done about the dust. Dust suppression is expensive. John Festa reported that they [residents, I assume] said that the trustees had told them that they would pave the road. [Blogger: What I remember from the election campaign is that John Festa was promising to pave the roads.]
Vic: Testing the school for asbestos and lead paint [again]. We met with two companies and did a walk through of the school to get proposals for different types of testing. One of them was from Mentor and had a recommendation that we really don't need to test everything at once, but room by room or floor by floor. His cost on average was only $10.00 per test. I had brought up before that maybe we should walk through a floor and determine the uses for the rooms. If we wanted to put up a wall, he could test just where we wanted to attach a wall; we would only have to pay for a few tests.
They were impressed with the good condition of the paint.
Mold is apparently not a problem. There might be a couple of areas. Testing can be an air test or a swab test, with the swab test probably preferable.
Asbestos--There are actually several different kinds of asbestos, and [blogger--if I remember correctly from this an previous reports] all are not equally problematical.
Lead certified contractors--we fall into a very gray area. It depends on who you talk to. Some say the contractor has to be certified, and say that the contractor can supervise. I really think at this point that our next step is to set up a walk-through. I can bring the little floor plans I have and show them to you (the other two trustees).
John Festa: Did we ever consider a consultant? [Blogger: Consultant=money. One of the things that bothers me about the present composition of the board of trustees is that the two newest members ignore input from people who have great depth of knowledge and have consistently over years researched information. It seems to me as if all the discussions about safety at the school completely ignore Vic's familiarity with the building--after all, he has worked on it and worked on it and worked on it--and also discount both the expertise and the recommendations of the people he has had in to do inspections. If all you have is the words on paper, it is less evident. In the meetings, the tone of voice says a great deal.]
Vic: (In response to the question about a consultant) Both people said they would give us recommendations. The man from Mentor with HCW Environmental was very impressive. He was the highest paid of the group.
They seemed very informative of what we can do and can write up recommendations of what has to be done.
John Festa: Take a good look so it does not come back and haunt us.
Vic: It would be nice to do a walk-through to decide what we want to do with the rooms and then have them tell us how to go about it. [Blogger: This was part of what led up to the July 2 meeting at the school building.]
There was discussion about painting the Township Hall. John Festa thought we should move forward on this. Marie said that the budget for the Hall is $2500.
Vic asked if anyone had been up to check the shutters to see what would be involved in repairing them before we paint. Are we going to look at anyone local?
[Blogger: There was more discussion about this, but the reports and comments about it during the July 18 meeting put it into perspective and give a lot more information.]
There was discussion about the Fire Department report on the buildings, and Marie mentioned Workers Compensation renewal. See the minutes if you want to get details on those two topics.
Marie: I would like to pass out the cash disbursements before the auditors are done. This will give you an idea of how we do the purchasing. This is what we have done without ever writing a new policy.
Jason: I did quite a few changes that I will get to you. I do not think a purchase requisition is/was necessary.
Marie: I have some other comments also. The e-mail I got from Chris Meduri had no problems other than a couple of things to straighten out. He told me that purchases over $2500 needed to be approved. [Blogger: This is in reference to the multiple-page mostly copied from Twinsburg purchasing policy that was mentioned in an earlier post as including references to a Township Manager, among other things. See my remarks above about ignoring Vic's knowledge. The same discounting seems to be directed at Marie as well. She is sometimes addressed as if she were a not-very-bright secretary rather than the most educated person at the front table, and one with an impeccable record.]
The discussions about the trailers on the west side of the school continued. See the minutes and subsequent posts about that topic.
Public Comment began at 9:45p.m.
Carole Pollard gave a preview of what is planned for the Ice Cream Social and thanked the Garden Club for a donation to The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc.
Hazardous materials: The huge fines and restrictions apply as deterrents to foolishness and cutting corners, but are not obstacles to moving forward. What it takes to deal with lead paint is not to disturb it, and if it has to be disturbed, have a certified supervisor to oversee the project. A HEPA filter must be used--cost, $30.00. The suits required are $20.00 each and can be reused. The total cost to deal with it could be as little as $500.
Lynn Harvey asked about whether someone from zoning could be at the July 2 walk-through and was told that it is a public meeting.
Roger Hurd said that he thought people should sign both the attendance sheet and the public comment sign-up sheet when they arrived, instead of waiting to see who was at the meeting and then signing up so as to have the last word in public comment.
Dave Pollard: Dave mentioned some field tile on the west edge of the cemetery. [Since so much land is shifting from farmland to other uses, the knowledge of drainage tiles is gradually lost, and problems occur when those tiles are broken and not repaired or obstructed in some other way.]
Dave, continuing: Concerning Old Frost: Paving it would be brutally expensive and would involve moving the phone line, among many other things. Have the property owners changed their minds about paving it?
Jason answered that the residents--7 houses--disagree with each other on this topic. [Even on the rough dirt road, cars travel very fast on that road, so some residents don't want it any better.]
Dave: I heard a report on NPR or someplace that many rural townships are looking at going back to dirt roads.
Dan Cozzens: I would like to clarify about the insurance. John Festa and Jason--it seemed to be a shock when John Festa brought it up. Why weren't they notified--why was it lied about? The agent said it was discussed by Marie Stehli and Vic Grimm. I am wondering why the two of you were not included. [The tone was contentious and accusatory. The "lie" was an assumption on Mr. Cozzens' part.]
Marie: The agent usually meets with me. They also want inventory on the garage. Vic is the most knowledgeable, so I asked him to come.
Vic: Everyone had the books from the last meeting--the same as were handed out tonight. We have been doing this every year for I don't know how many years
Dan: That doesn't make it right.
Vic: It was a review and the books were brought here to the meeting.
Dan: I don't understand why it was done that way. [Blogger: And lack of understanding constitutes some evil plot?]
Vic: I see we are getting nowhere.
Dan: Another thing about the school: If you test the first floor and then work on the upper floors, it will affect the rest of them.
Vic: That was the recommendation of a professional who does this every day and that is the way we have done it with another contractor. We pay to have it tested. [Blogger: what is not in my notes is how many times Dan Cozzens interrupted and overrode Vic while he was talking.]
Vic: All you want to do is argue.
Dan: No I don't! [Blogger: Volume and intensity belied that assertion entirely.]
Vic: That is why I want to do a walk-through.
Dan: Pick and choose.
Vic: Look in the minutes of the last meeting.
Vic reiterated that the two professionals had said that where the work is going to be done is where things should be tested.
Jason: I think a lot of questions are going to be answered on the walk-through.
Cal Brant: Do we have a plan for the painting of the building?
John Festa: All I got was quotes.
Cal: Prep is the most important part. Do you have a product compatible with what you are going to use? Did you put out a bid sheet specifying what you are going to use?
Jason: How are we supposed to know that? [Blogger: It's called research. It comes with the territory.]
Cal: He (John Festa) likes plans--I want to know if he has a plan. Do we know which rooms [in the school] are going to be used? No? Then during the walk-through can we have a plan? Do you have a list of the people who want to use that building?
Cal, continuing: Vic talked to the right person and got the right information.
John Festa: I was there, Cal.
Cal: And you didn't learn anything?
John Festa: I learned a lot. [Blogger: 1. Was anyone else surprised to hear that, after Vic did all the heavy lifting on reporting about the meeting with the consultants? 2. No one was left to ask John Festa
what he learned, and he did not elaborate. Subsequent meetings and comments seem to contradict his claim that he learned a lot.]
Vic: (To John Festa) You said the paint was not very good. [This was the paint on the Township Hall.] It was the best at the time. It was 41% solids, latex paint.
John Festa: It should have been stained.
Vic: That was the best at the time.
The motion to pay the bills came shortly after that. Generally, most people leave at that point, and the camera for the rogue website gets shut off and removed. At this meeting, there was a confrontation at the door among several people which which was part of what led to the suspension of public comment at the next meeting--even though the confrontation was initiated by one person who apparently gets unsettled when people look at him while he talks. It is a public meeting, after all.
On June 21, the Township's insurance agent met with the trustees and the fiscal officer. See the minutes for that information if you want it.
The deadline for Aurora Meadows residents to sign on to the sewer line project for only $240 has now passed; the fee now will be $8,000. Residents have had a year and a half to sign on.
There was discussion about a resident on Old Frost Road, which is not paved, having asked about whether something could be done about the dust. Dust suppression is expensive. John Festa reported that they [residents, I assume] said that the trustees had told them that they would pave the road. [Blogger: What I remember from the election campaign is that John Festa was promising to pave the roads.]
Vic: Testing the school for asbestos and lead paint [again]. We met with two companies and did a walk through of the school to get proposals for different types of testing. One of them was from Mentor and had a recommendation that we really don't need to test everything at once, but room by room or floor by floor. His cost on average was only $10.00 per test. I had brought up before that maybe we should walk through a floor and determine the uses for the rooms. If we wanted to put up a wall, he could test just where we wanted to attach a wall; we would only have to pay for a few tests.
They were impressed with the good condition of the paint.
Mold is apparently not a problem. There might be a couple of areas. Testing can be an air test or a swab test, with the swab test probably preferable.
Asbestos--There are actually several different kinds of asbestos, and [blogger--if I remember correctly from this an previous reports] all are not equally problematical.
Lead certified contractors--we fall into a very gray area. It depends on who you talk to. Some say the contractor has to be certified, and say that the contractor can supervise. I really think at this point that our next step is to set up a walk-through. I can bring the little floor plans I have and show them to you (the other two trustees).
John Festa: Did we ever consider a consultant? [Blogger: Consultant=money. One of the things that bothers me about the present composition of the board of trustees is that the two newest members ignore input from people who have great depth of knowledge and have consistently over years researched information. It seems to me as if all the discussions about safety at the school completely ignore Vic's familiarity with the building--after all, he has worked on it and worked on it and worked on it--and also discount both the expertise and the recommendations of the people he has had in to do inspections. If all you have is the words on paper, it is less evident. In the meetings, the tone of voice says a great deal.]
Vic: (In response to the question about a consultant) Both people said they would give us recommendations. The man from Mentor with HCW Environmental was very impressive. He was the highest paid of the group.
They seemed very informative of what we can do and can write up recommendations of what has to be done.
John Festa: Take a good look so it does not come back and haunt us.
Vic: It would be nice to do a walk-through to decide what we want to do with the rooms and then have them tell us how to go about it. [Blogger: This was part of what led up to the July 2 meeting at the school building.]
There was discussion about painting the Township Hall. John Festa thought we should move forward on this. Marie said that the budget for the Hall is $2500.
Vic asked if anyone had been up to check the shutters to see what would be involved in repairing them before we paint. Are we going to look at anyone local?
[Blogger: There was more discussion about this, but the reports and comments about it during the July 18 meeting put it into perspective and give a lot more information.]
There was discussion about the Fire Department report on the buildings, and Marie mentioned Workers Compensation renewal. See the minutes if you want to get details on those two topics.
Marie: I would like to pass out the cash disbursements before the auditors are done. This will give you an idea of how we do the purchasing. This is what we have done without ever writing a new policy.
Jason: I did quite a few changes that I will get to you. I do not think a purchase requisition is/was necessary.
Marie: I have some other comments also. The e-mail I got from Chris Meduri had no problems other than a couple of things to straighten out. He told me that purchases over $2500 needed to be approved. [Blogger: This is in reference to the multiple-page mostly copied from Twinsburg purchasing policy that was mentioned in an earlier post as including references to a Township Manager, among other things. See my remarks above about ignoring Vic's knowledge. The same discounting seems to be directed at Marie as well. She is sometimes addressed as if she were a not-very-bright secretary rather than the most educated person at the front table, and one with an impeccable record.]
The discussions about the trailers on the west side of the school continued. See the minutes and subsequent posts about that topic.
Public Comment began at 9:45p.m.
Carole Pollard gave a preview of what is planned for the Ice Cream Social and thanked the Garden Club for a donation to The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc.
Hazardous materials: The huge fines and restrictions apply as deterrents to foolishness and cutting corners, but are not obstacles to moving forward. What it takes to deal with lead paint is not to disturb it, and if it has to be disturbed, have a certified supervisor to oversee the project. A HEPA filter must be used--cost, $30.00. The suits required are $20.00 each and can be reused. The total cost to deal with it could be as little as $500.
Lynn Harvey asked about whether someone from zoning could be at the July 2 walk-through and was told that it is a public meeting.
Roger Hurd said that he thought people should sign both the attendance sheet and the public comment sign-up sheet when they arrived, instead of waiting to see who was at the meeting and then signing up so as to have the last word in public comment.
Dave Pollard: Dave mentioned some field tile on the west edge of the cemetery. [Since so much land is shifting from farmland to other uses, the knowledge of drainage tiles is gradually lost, and problems occur when those tiles are broken and not repaired or obstructed in some other way.]
Dave, continuing: Concerning Old Frost: Paving it would be brutally expensive and would involve moving the phone line, among many other things. Have the property owners changed their minds about paving it?
Jason answered that the residents--7 houses--disagree with each other on this topic. [Even on the rough dirt road, cars travel very fast on that road, so some residents don't want it any better.]
Dave: I heard a report on NPR or someplace that many rural townships are looking at going back to dirt roads.
Dan Cozzens: I would like to clarify about the insurance. John Festa and Jason--it seemed to be a shock when John Festa brought it up. Why weren't they notified--why was it lied about? The agent said it was discussed by Marie Stehli and Vic Grimm. I am wondering why the two of you were not included. [The tone was contentious and accusatory. The "lie" was an assumption on Mr. Cozzens' part.]
Marie: The agent usually meets with me. They also want inventory on the garage. Vic is the most knowledgeable, so I asked him to come.
Vic: Everyone had the books from the last meeting--the same as were handed out tonight. We have been doing this every year for I don't know how many years
Dan: That doesn't make it right.
Vic: It was a review and the books were brought here to the meeting.
Dan: I don't understand why it was done that way. [Blogger: And lack of understanding constitutes some evil plot?]
Vic: I see we are getting nowhere.
Dan: Another thing about the school: If you test the first floor and then work on the upper floors, it will affect the rest of them.
Vic: That was the recommendation of a professional who does this every day and that is the way we have done it with another contractor. We pay to have it tested. [Blogger: what is not in my notes is how many times Dan Cozzens interrupted and overrode Vic while he was talking.]
Vic: All you want to do is argue.
Dan: No I don't! [Blogger: Volume and intensity belied that assertion entirely.]
Vic: That is why I want to do a walk-through.
Dan: Pick and choose.
Vic: Look in the minutes of the last meeting.
Vic reiterated that the two professionals had said that where the work is going to be done is where things should be tested.
Jason: I think a lot of questions are going to be answered on the walk-through.
Cal Brant: Do we have a plan for the painting of the building?
John Festa: All I got was quotes.
Cal: Prep is the most important part. Do you have a product compatible with what you are going to use? Did you put out a bid sheet specifying what you are going to use?
Jason: How are we supposed to know that? [Blogger: It's called research. It comes with the territory.]
Cal: He (John Festa) likes plans--I want to know if he has a plan. Do we know which rooms [in the school] are going to be used? No? Then during the walk-through can we have a plan? Do you have a list of the people who want to use that building?
Cal, continuing: Vic talked to the right person and got the right information.
John Festa: I was there, Cal.
Cal: And you didn't learn anything?
John Festa: I learned a lot. [Blogger: 1. Was anyone else surprised to hear that, after Vic did all the heavy lifting on reporting about the meeting with the consultants? 2. No one was left to ask John Festa
what he learned, and he did not elaborate. Subsequent meetings and comments seem to contradict his claim that he learned a lot.]
Vic: (To John Festa) You said the paint was not very good. [This was the paint on the Township Hall.] It was the best at the time. It was 41% solids, latex paint.
John Festa: It should have been stained.
Vic: That was the best at the time.
The motion to pay the bills came shortly after that. Generally, most people leave at that point, and the camera for the rogue website gets shut off and removed. At this meeting, there was a confrontation at the door among several people which which was part of what led to the suspension of public comment at the next meeting--even though the confrontation was initiated by one person who apparently gets unsettled when people look at him while he talks. It is a public meeting, after all.
Monday, July 16, 2012
Limerick for 7-16 to 7-22
Those who kneel at the altar of cash
Put their faith in transient trash;
Those who worship only pelf
Know not the sources of true wealth--
Family, true friends, and lifelong good health.
(c) Dave Pollard, 7-12
Put their faith in transient trash;
Those who worship only pelf
Know not the sources of true wealth--
Family, true friends, and lifelong good health.
(c) Dave Pollard, 7-12
Trustees' Meeting Date Change
FYI, it is traditional for the Trustees' second meeting in July to be on Wednesday, not Thursday.
So this week's meeting is Wednesday, July 18, 7p.m. in the Township Hall.
In light of the absolute silence on July 5about anything regarding the July 2 walkaround and possible need to have an inspection of the school building, plus cancellation of public comment for the July 5 meeting, there should be a lot going on and possibly a lot that people might want to say.
It would be a shame to miss it because of confusion over the meeting date.
So this week's meeting is Wednesday, July 18, 7p.m. in the Township Hall.
In light of the absolute silence on July 5about anything regarding the July 2 walkaround and possible need to have an inspection of the school building, plus cancellation of public comment for the July 5 meeting, there should be a lot going on and possibly a lot that people might want to say.
It would be a shame to miss it because of confusion over the meeting date.
Thursday, July 12, 2012
Dave's signs 7-11 to 7-14
Preserve our past--Invest in our future
Join* The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc.,
At Art on the Hill July 14.
Raffle quilt on display; T-shirts on sale.
[Blogger: *Dues are $5.00 per person per year, and we joyfully accept donations beyond that.]
Join* The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc.,
At Art on the Hill July 14.
Raffle quilt on display; T-shirts on sale.
[Blogger: *Dues are $5.00 per person per year, and we joyfully accept donations beyond that.]
Tuesday, July 10, 2012
A Shabby First for Mantua Township
Mantua Township Trustees Meeting July 5, 2012
The meeting opened with the usual activities--minutes, fiscal officer's report, club and committee reports, etc. Then came New Business.
Jason Carlton: Jason talked about public comment and having removed the time limit but asking that, with freedom of speech, comments be kept brief.
Continuing: I would just like to state that at these last two meetings, I was disappointed. The last meeting, there was an issue at the doorway. I should not have to be telling people to behave like adults.
Jason made a motion to this effect: To suspend public comment at this meeting so that cooler heads can prevail. The Sunshine Laws [Blogger: And Roberts Rules of Order] state that public comment is a privilege, not a necessity.
Jason made the motion, and he and John Festa voted yes. Vic voted no.
Jason: I am also available after the meetings and by phone.
At 7:45, Richard Heil, who lives on Winchell close to Townline Road, and a friend arrived and signed in.
Before the Trustees paused to pay the bills, Jason reiterated the suspension of comment, a number of other people having also come in late.
Mr. Heil was NOT happy with that decision and pressed Jason about it. It was very noisy, so I know I did not get everything, but this is the gist of it:
Mr. Heil said, How do we know when public comment will resume? Ever? I think he reiterated that and asked if it would be reinstated at the next meeting. I believe that Jason said it would be.
To the best of anyone's memory, this is the ONLY time that public comment has ever been suspended for everyone. During Mark Hall's term as a trustee, he rescinded Dawn Pechman's opportunity to speak at a meeting once because she had been very disruptive at the previous meeting.
While Dawn was bringing Aurora resident George Mazzaro to meetings and both of them were harassing Marie and the trustees (well, not Connie Leedom, but certainly Vic and Steve Oros, which resulted in the ruling that only Township residents were permitted to speak in public comment), people were never denied public comment. That, despite the fact that several of us, outraged at Dawn and Mazzaro's behavior, pleaded with Vic to shut them down.
There is a truly shameful meeting--shameful in regard to the behavior of residents bullying Vic and Mark--when they just took it and went on. I suspect that the view of that out in the wilderness without adult supervision was that Vic and Mark were weak. It was painful to watch, and I wish they had cut the bullies (or maybe just the one) off in mid-snarl. However, the attitudes were certainly clear, and Vic has always just wanted to hear what people had to say.
OK, about the time limit, which Jason cancelled when he assumed the chair. The 5-minute time limit was set because of--guess who--Dawn's having gone on at length (as I understand it, almost 45 minutes at one meeting) in meeting after meeting. I didn't see that one, but I was in attendance during a number of them. The Gettysburg Address was only about two minutes long. It's a standard we might all meditate and act upon (she said as she rattled away on the keys at length).
By cancelling the time limit, Jason made himself the arbiter of how long each person gets to speak, and if he doesn't like what's being said, he has been observed to cut off the speaker and just go on. It's nice that he tries ostensibly to appeal to people's better nature and to say that we are all adults. It hasn't worked. The time limit is usually long enough; sometimes, of course, it seems like an hour. But if everyone gets 5 minutes if he or she wants it, we are operating under the rule of law, and not personal whim.
By making himself available after meetings or by phone, Jason also reduces the public's view of a resident holding him--correction: trying to hold him--accountable, and only he hears the remarks. It's a way of subverting open government. And Jason and John Festa have never been subjected to anything like the ugly, hateful abuse that Vic and Mark endured in carrying out their responsibilities.
The meeting opened with the usual activities--minutes, fiscal officer's report, club and committee reports, etc. Then came New Business.
Jason Carlton: Jason talked about public comment and having removed the time limit but asking that, with freedom of speech, comments be kept brief.
Continuing: I would just like to state that at these last two meetings, I was disappointed. The last meeting, there was an issue at the doorway. I should not have to be telling people to behave like adults.
Jason made a motion to this effect: To suspend public comment at this meeting so that cooler heads can prevail. The Sunshine Laws [Blogger: And Roberts Rules of Order] state that public comment is a privilege, not a necessity.
Jason made the motion, and he and John Festa voted yes. Vic voted no.
Jason: I am also available after the meetings and by phone.
At 7:45, Richard Heil, who lives on Winchell close to Townline Road, and a friend arrived and signed in.
Before the Trustees paused to pay the bills, Jason reiterated the suspension of comment, a number of other people having also come in late.
Mr. Heil was NOT happy with that decision and pressed Jason about it. It was very noisy, so I know I did not get everything, but this is the gist of it:
Mr. Heil said, How do we know when public comment will resume? Ever? I think he reiterated that and asked if it would be reinstated at the next meeting. I believe that Jason said it would be.
To the best of anyone's memory, this is the ONLY time that public comment has ever been suspended for everyone. During Mark Hall's term as a trustee, he rescinded Dawn Pechman's opportunity to speak at a meeting once because she had been very disruptive at the previous meeting.
While Dawn was bringing Aurora resident George Mazzaro to meetings and both of them were harassing Marie and the trustees (well, not Connie Leedom, but certainly Vic and Steve Oros, which resulted in the ruling that only Township residents were permitted to speak in public comment), people were never denied public comment. That, despite the fact that several of us, outraged at Dawn and Mazzaro's behavior, pleaded with Vic to shut them down.
There is a truly shameful meeting--shameful in regard to the behavior of residents bullying Vic and Mark--when they just took it and went on. I suspect that the view of that out in the wilderness without adult supervision was that Vic and Mark were weak. It was painful to watch, and I wish they had cut the bullies (or maybe just the one) off in mid-snarl. However, the attitudes were certainly clear, and Vic has always just wanted to hear what people had to say.
OK, about the time limit, which Jason cancelled when he assumed the chair. The 5-minute time limit was set because of--guess who--Dawn's having gone on at length (as I understand it, almost 45 minutes at one meeting) in meeting after meeting. I didn't see that one, but I was in attendance during a number of them. The Gettysburg Address was only about two minutes long. It's a standard we might all meditate and act upon (she said as she rattled away on the keys at length).
By cancelling the time limit, Jason made himself the arbiter of how long each person gets to speak, and if he doesn't like what's being said, he has been observed to cut off the speaker and just go on. It's nice that he tries ostensibly to appeal to people's better nature and to say that we are all adults. It hasn't worked. The time limit is usually long enough; sometimes, of course, it seems like an hour. But if everyone gets 5 minutes if he or she wants it, we are operating under the rule of law, and not personal whim.
By making himself available after meetings or by phone, Jason also reduces the public's view of a resident holding him--correction: trying to hold him--accountable, and only he hears the remarks. It's a way of subverting open government. And Jason and John Festa have never been subjected to anything like the ugly, hateful abuse that Vic and Mark endured in carrying out their responsibilities.
Saturday, July 7, 2012
Fact Checker at Work (Or Virtual Blowtorch)
Blogger's Foreword: This post was prompted by comments on what a number of us refer to as "the rogue website," which many people still mistakenly believe is the official Mantua Township site.
If this post was prompted by comments there, why is it going into the blog?
To post on that site, a person must provide his or her e-mail address. Given the tone of the remarks on the comment board, a whole lot of us are mistrustful of what would be done with our contact information.
With that said, away we go.
Mark Twain once said, more or less, "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
To riff on that a little: "Reports" on my marriage and life are side-splittingly inaccurate.
Quote:
"It seems Carol [sic] is such an expert on everything. She likes to hear herself talk. She sure isn't an expert on REAL life. She was married for less than a year once and he had enough. She will never know what it is like to be a mother or a grandmother. [Italics added.] That's when you experience real life. She has no life. It sure isn't spent cleaning up her yard. She is a mean nasty old women [sic] with a grudge. An axe to grind. But why???"
I haven't laughed so hard since the last time I read a "Calvin and Hobbes" cartoon. Let me make a quick pass at a couple of these howlers before getting down to business. So: real life is having children and grandchildren and doing yard work. FYI, my place is certified National Wildlife habitat. And apparently I am twins, or something, being described as "old women."
Claim: "She was married for less than a year once. . . ."
FACT: I was married once, for considerably longer than a year.
Claim: " . . . and he had enough."
[Blogger: I read that to mean that my husband left.]
FACT: He didn't leave. I did. And so did two women after me. My ex was and is (we had a lovely conversation recently) a good man to whom women can't seem to stay married.
Births, deaths, marriages, divorces, bankruptcy, non-payment of taxes, just for starters--all kinds of information are matters of public record, and people who don't check before yammering get caught out. They could cure their ignorance, but in this case, obviously, did not.
REAL life? The life each of us has is real. The claim that not having children is the equivalent of not having a life is an opinion, and opinions differ.
FACT: Nope, I didn't have children. I merely spent close to 40 years teaching other people's children--possibly thousands of them, but I was too busy to count--how to use their minds; how to write; how to use those skills to make their way in the world.
Some of t hem cursed me every day of class--and then thanked me every day on their jobs. How do I know? They came back to tell me about it. Their lives are better, and so are their children's lives, because I was their teacher.
I have no regrets about that choice, and on that one, my opinion is the only one that counts, because it's my life. It's my life, and I'm living it for myself, not for the approval--as if that were possible--of people who think that freedom of speech means that they can say any ignorant, stupid, vindictive thing they want.
Since lack of research is already thoroughly demonstrated in the remarks about me, let me fill in that roaring void and define exactly what ignorant, stupid, and vindictive mean. .
Ignorant: destitute of knowledge or education; resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence.
Stupid: slow of mind: obtuse; given to unintelligent decisions or acts; acting in an unintelligent or careless manner; lacking intelligence or reason: brutish; marked by unreasoned thinking or acting.
Vindictive: disposed to seek revenge, vengeful; intended for or involving revenge; intended to cause anguish or hurt; spiteful.
And a bonus:
Know-it-all: One who claims to know everything; also, one who disdains advice.
Knowledgeable: Having or demonstrating knowledge or intelligence. [Trust Webster to run you around in a circle after the root definition. Being knowledgeable means having gained information about and understanding of something by study, familiarity, and practice.]
Definitions from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, 2009.
Why put all of those definitions here? The people on the blog's contact list (and those who have found the blog on their own and value it) certainly don't need them. But those--obviously--aren't the blog's only readers. I taught technical writing for 25 years, and the basic principle was that one wrote for those who don't know.
Those who understand need no explanation; those who need an explanation will not understand.
If this post was prompted by comments there, why is it going into the blog?
To post on that site, a person must provide his or her e-mail address. Given the tone of the remarks on the comment board, a whole lot of us are mistrustful of what would be done with our contact information.
With that said, away we go.
Mark Twain once said, more or less, "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
To riff on that a little: "Reports" on my marriage and life are side-splittingly inaccurate.
Quote:
"It seems Carol [sic] is such an expert on everything. She likes to hear herself talk. She sure isn't an expert on REAL life. She was married for less than a year once and he had enough. She will never know what it is like to be a mother or a grandmother. [Italics added.] That's when you experience real life. She has no life. It sure isn't spent cleaning up her yard. She is a mean nasty old women [sic] with a grudge. An axe to grind. But why???"
I haven't laughed so hard since the last time I read a "Calvin and Hobbes" cartoon. Let me make a quick pass at a couple of these howlers before getting down to business. So: real life is having children and grandchildren and doing yard work. FYI, my place is certified National Wildlife habitat. And apparently I am twins, or something, being described as "old women."
Claim: "She was married for less than a year once. . . ."
FACT: I was married once, for considerably longer than a year.
Claim: " . . . and he had enough."
[Blogger: I read that to mean that my husband left.]
FACT: He didn't leave. I did. And so did two women after me. My ex was and is (we had a lovely conversation recently) a good man to whom women can't seem to stay married.
Births, deaths, marriages, divorces, bankruptcy, non-payment of taxes, just for starters--all kinds of information are matters of public record, and people who don't check before yammering get caught out. They could cure their ignorance, but in this case, obviously, did not.
REAL life? The life each of us has is real. The claim that not having children is the equivalent of not having a life is an opinion, and opinions differ.
FACT: Nope, I didn't have children. I merely spent close to 40 years teaching other people's children--possibly thousands of them, but I was too busy to count--how to use their minds; how to write; how to use those skills to make their way in the world.
Some of t hem cursed me every day of class--and then thanked me every day on their jobs. How do I know? They came back to tell me about it. Their lives are better, and so are their children's lives, because I was their teacher.
I have no regrets about that choice, and on that one, my opinion is the only one that counts, because it's my life. It's my life, and I'm living it for myself, not for the approval--as if that were possible--of people who think that freedom of speech means that they can say any ignorant, stupid, vindictive thing they want.
Since lack of research is already thoroughly demonstrated in the remarks about me, let me fill in that roaring void and define exactly what ignorant, stupid, and vindictive mean. .
Ignorant: destitute of knowledge or education; resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence.
Stupid: slow of mind: obtuse; given to unintelligent decisions or acts; acting in an unintelligent or careless manner; lacking intelligence or reason: brutish; marked by unreasoned thinking or acting.
Vindictive: disposed to seek revenge, vengeful; intended for or involving revenge; intended to cause anguish or hurt; spiteful.
And a bonus:
Know-it-all: One who claims to know everything; also, one who disdains advice.
Knowledgeable: Having or demonstrating knowledge or intelligence. [Trust Webster to run you around in a circle after the root definition. Being knowledgeable means having gained information about and understanding of something by study, familiarity, and practice.]
Definitions from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, 2009.
Why put all of those definitions here? The people on the blog's contact list (and those who have found the blog on their own and value it) certainly don't need them. But those--obviously--aren't the blog's only readers. I taught technical writing for 25 years, and the basic principle was that one wrote for those who don't know.
Those who understand need no explanation; those who need an explanation will not understand.
Wednesday, July 4, 2012
A Thumbnail Summary of 7-2-12 School Walkthrough
The official record of the school walk-through is Marie's minutes.
I am behind on blog posts, since the first July meeting is tomorrow evening as I keyboard this and the June 21 meeting is still only in my notebook.
So what this post will do is identify the positions. Somewhere between 30 and 35 people attended, but there was no sign-in sheet for this meeting.
Here is my take on it, and I am not alone in this: Behind the smokescreen of "doing it right" and "we don't want this to come back and haunt us," the project has suddenly grown in complexity, the time it will take, and, most importantly, MONEY.
The Portage County Building Department has said we can begin using the building; the environmental inspection frim that Vic has consulted has said that testing only needs to be done where work is going to be done and that covered or encapsulated materials are of not concern; a report is in the Township records from another environmental inspection company stating very clearly that the areas of concern and testing for that report are all right. That has been rejected time after time by Larry Leitzow or whoever was speaking for him at various meetings. Vic's presentation of that information is in an earlier post. That is all a matter of public record and is on video as well.
So, here is what Jason and John Festa had to say, basically: despite the industry standard that testing only has to be done where something is punctured, the two trustees with the least acquaintance with the building are saying that they have to tear out all kinds of things to see what is back there. We don't want it to come back and haunt us, according to John Festa. Jason wants to add some class to the building's interior, but I am not sure what his definition of that is, and that is not a sarcastic remark. No one asked him to define it in any detail. He apparently does not like the blue paint, and my own experience is that every time I painted a room blue, I didn't care to be in it. But paint isn't expensive and doesn't take all that long to apply. Jason's remarks about the paint were made in the big north room on the main floor, where some had thought that the trustees would have office space.
As it turns out, they (John Festa in particular) want Marie to have office hours but apparently do not themselves intend to house themselves in the school building, since they do their work as trustees on the phone or on the road. One resident asked how she would meet or talk with a trustee, and when John Festa said he would come to her house, she rejected that absolutely out of hand and was equally emphatic about
not going to his house.
Tear out what? Well, the blackboards and anything else that is attached to the walls. For starters. John Festa said he had a report from the school system about the building. I did not ask what year it was. Two of the reports on the building that are out there--current and up to date, if you believe the rogue website-- are from the 1990's, and the external building description from the Lesco report is completely inaccurate, from what I can tell. It appears to have been done on a quick driveby. And never mind that doing all that tearing out would release stuff that is presently safely contained.
Another part of what I see as a witch hunt to convince the residents that the building is a health hazard is the search for black mold. I didn't see it, but someone who followed the group into the basement said that someone was actually lying on the floor apparently looking for something hazardous. That was what I was told, along with the name of the person on the floor. Given that, and the position that person has taken regarding the school and Vic and Mark, I am willing to accept it as accurate.
In 2004 the Trustees hired Dave Sommers and Associates to do a site assessment, which I have read several times. That is the most current and up-to-date evaluation of the building, and it was done by someone who was NOT trying to convince the taxpayers to pass a new school bond issue or levy. The building was found sound. That site assessment did not inspect for hazardous materials, since that is, I believe, outside of the purview of the firm and also because that is a separate issue.
The people who came who believe that the school is sound and useful and valuable came away not believing the stories that had been told inside, but convinced that all the high-sounding, responsible sounding rhetoric actually covered--very thinly and ineffectively--the reality that these two trustees--and whoever is behind the curtain do not intend for us to be able to use that building.
Actions speak louder than words--and the action here is of heels dug into the ground as hard as possible.
I am behind on blog posts, since the first July meeting is tomorrow evening as I keyboard this and the June 21 meeting is still only in my notebook.
So what this post will do is identify the positions. Somewhere between 30 and 35 people attended, but there was no sign-in sheet for this meeting.
Here is my take on it, and I am not alone in this: Behind the smokescreen of "doing it right" and "we don't want this to come back and haunt us," the project has suddenly grown in complexity, the time it will take, and, most importantly, MONEY.
The Portage County Building Department has said we can begin using the building; the environmental inspection frim that Vic has consulted has said that testing only needs to be done where work is going to be done and that covered or encapsulated materials are of not concern; a report is in the Township records from another environmental inspection company stating very clearly that the areas of concern and testing for that report are all right. That has been rejected time after time by Larry Leitzow or whoever was speaking for him at various meetings. Vic's presentation of that information is in an earlier post. That is all a matter of public record and is on video as well.
So, here is what Jason and John Festa had to say, basically: despite the industry standard that testing only has to be done where something is punctured, the two trustees with the least acquaintance with the building are saying that they have to tear out all kinds of things to see what is back there. We don't want it to come back and haunt us, according to John Festa. Jason wants to add some class to the building's interior, but I am not sure what his definition of that is, and that is not a sarcastic remark. No one asked him to define it in any detail. He apparently does not like the blue paint, and my own experience is that every time I painted a room blue, I didn't care to be in it. But paint isn't expensive and doesn't take all that long to apply. Jason's remarks about the paint were made in the big north room on the main floor, where some had thought that the trustees would have office space.
As it turns out, they (John Festa in particular) want Marie to have office hours but apparently do not themselves intend to house themselves in the school building, since they do their work as trustees on the phone or on the road. One resident asked how she would meet or talk with a trustee, and when John Festa said he would come to her house, she rejected that absolutely out of hand and was equally emphatic about
not going to his house.
Tear out what? Well, the blackboards and anything else that is attached to the walls. For starters. John Festa said he had a report from the school system about the building. I did not ask what year it was. Two of the reports on the building that are out there--current and up to date, if you believe the rogue website-- are from the 1990's, and the external building description from the Lesco report is completely inaccurate, from what I can tell. It appears to have been done on a quick driveby. And never mind that doing all that tearing out would release stuff that is presently safely contained.
Another part of what I see as a witch hunt to convince the residents that the building is a health hazard is the search for black mold. I didn't see it, but someone who followed the group into the basement said that someone was actually lying on the floor apparently looking for something hazardous. That was what I was told, along with the name of the person on the floor. Given that, and the position that person has taken regarding the school and Vic and Mark, I am willing to accept it as accurate.
In 2004 the Trustees hired Dave Sommers and Associates to do a site assessment, which I have read several times. That is the most current and up-to-date evaluation of the building, and it was done by someone who was NOT trying to convince the taxpayers to pass a new school bond issue or levy. The building was found sound. That site assessment did not inspect for hazardous materials, since that is, I believe, outside of the purview of the firm and also because that is a separate issue.
The people who came who believe that the school is sound and useful and valuable came away not believing the stories that had been told inside, but convinced that all the high-sounding, responsible sounding rhetoric actually covered--very thinly and ineffectively--the reality that these two trustees--and whoever is behind the curtain do not intend for us to be able to use that building.
Actions speak louder than words--and the action here is of heels dug into the ground as hard as possible.
Tuesday, July 3, 2012
Special Meeting May 30, 2012: Use of the School
Blogger's foreword: If you have already read the previous post, there were some glitches in it that I have corrected. Also, since I spoke twice but impromptu in that section, I had to get a recording to get my own remarks. They have been edited into the previous post. If necessary, I will do the same thing with this last piece, since time is running short before I will leave for the school walk-through at 6:30.
Fiscal Officer Marie Stehli made the following remarks after Cal spoke: If we rent to a government or non-profit, we will lose our tax exempt status. Vic gave examples of governments being penalized for violating that requirement.
Yes, we have owned the bujilding quite a while, and a lot of it has been done in phases. We had an architect wome up and do a feasibility study, and he recommended a bond issue but we refused it in order not to put a burden on the taxpayers.
Wendy Carlton: Why did we not negotiate the price of that building because the taxpayers paid for it [in 1914] and then we paid for it again. [Blogger: Wendy also asked what was wrong with making money. I believe that it has to do with laws that are intended to keep government honest.]
Vic: According to the Ohio Revised Code, the school system had to sell the school for 80% of what it was evaluated at. Shalersville and we tried to buy it for $1.00, and also for Shalersville and Mantua Township to go together. But we exhausted everything.
Wendy referred to the allegation that an agreement had been signed between the Trustees and the owner of the preschool to rent space for $600 per month.
Vic: There was never an agreement. What government building that houses government services makes a profit?
[Blogger: This is just one of the allegations on the masked people's* website that has a lot of indignation surrounding it but that is completely untrue. I believe that the preschool owner made a proposal to the Trustees for that amount per month, but it was not acted on.]
*See the post from early 2011 titled "Who Are These Masked People?"
Wendy: It is OK to make money and pay taxes.
Marie Stehli: I wanted people to know why I brought this up at this time. I have been in business for myself since 1982. In 1989 we built the house with the upstairs as a one-person office and it seemed like enough room. Over the last 20 years my own business has grown and so has the need to store the Township records.
The Township records are there until they are audited and can go into storage. But there are many records that need to stay with me. The office physically needs renovation and other work needs to be done. It can not be done with everything that is physically within the room.
Regarding office hours: Many times I cannot work in there because it is so hot. If I turn on the Township computer when it is hot and the window air conditioner is running, the house fuse blows. Having everything at the school would make the audits efficient. I was surprised to see 2 people get out of the car yesterday. I had to put out a card table for the second person. It is cramped.
Office hours during the day in summer are not possible because it is too hot and I can not run copies. Vic and Mark will tell you I have badgered them to death but not in public meetings.
Legal counsel has told me that because of the amount of abuse my family and I have suffered at home, that I should not be dealing with the public out of my house.
I am not getting any younger--I have had two trustees and the zoning inspector drop dead while I was in office.
Those are the reasons I want to make the move.
Jason: I think this meeting was coming to a head for a long time and it may not be as complex as it has been made to seem.
I think we need some kind of plan to get there.
Jason thought that Diamond Environmental should be gotten to test everything and asked John Festa about that. [Blogger: In context, this was clear: that the company be called to come out soon.]
Vic said he could call.
Jason instructed Vic about everything we would need to be covered as a public entity. He also, to Marie, said, "You have a drawing of how you want the room?"
Marie: I have drawn it many times. Some discussion about that followed.
Jason: We need to get a couple of contractors inside the building who can tell us exactly what we need and want to do.
There are volunteers who want to heop out. I do not necessarily see us hiring a general contractor to do the work but to manage the volunteers.
I will look into some aspect of [this] to get the ball rolling. I have asked Zoning about their requirements but have not received anything.
Lynn Harvey: I was not aware you were waiting. Vic took me thjrough a room like Marie Stehli's and I thought it would be good. It is bigger than what we need.
I am mystified as to why we need a general contractor. Paint, clean carpet, move cabinets in, and we are good to go.
I don't understand why we have to get all of this other stuff involved. We have a go ahead from the Portage County Building Department and now we have to get all of this other stuff. I would like to see us have a follow-up meeting to this when we have gotten answers. [?]
Firm up a short term plan and challenge the trustees to come up with a short term and a long range plan.
Vic: Maybe propose before we go too far along, a special meeting for a walk-through of the first floor so we are all on the same page.
John Festa: For the Trustees?
Vic: If all three of us meet, it would have to be open to the public.
Jason: Each room needs to be purposed.
Motion to adjourn at 11:00 a.m. Unanimous.
Fiscal Officer Marie Stehli made the following remarks after Cal spoke: If we rent to a government or non-profit, we will lose our tax exempt status. Vic gave examples of governments being penalized for violating that requirement.
Yes, we have owned the bujilding quite a while, and a lot of it has been done in phases. We had an architect wome up and do a feasibility study, and he recommended a bond issue but we refused it in order not to put a burden on the taxpayers.
Wendy Carlton: Why did we not negotiate the price of that building because the taxpayers paid for it [in 1914] and then we paid for it again. [Blogger: Wendy also asked what was wrong with making money. I believe that it has to do with laws that are intended to keep government honest.]
Vic: According to the Ohio Revised Code, the school system had to sell the school for 80% of what it was evaluated at. Shalersville and we tried to buy it for $1.00, and also for Shalersville and Mantua Township to go together. But we exhausted everything.
Wendy referred to the allegation that an agreement had been signed between the Trustees and the owner of the preschool to rent space for $600 per month.
Vic: There was never an agreement. What government building that houses government services makes a profit?
[Blogger: This is just one of the allegations on the masked people's* website that has a lot of indignation surrounding it but that is completely untrue. I believe that the preschool owner made a proposal to the Trustees for that amount per month, but it was not acted on.]
*See the post from early 2011 titled "Who Are These Masked People?"
Wendy: It is OK to make money and pay taxes.
Marie Stehli: I wanted people to know why I brought this up at this time. I have been in business for myself since 1982. In 1989 we built the house with the upstairs as a one-person office and it seemed like enough room. Over the last 20 years my own business has grown and so has the need to store the Township records.
The Township records are there until they are audited and can go into storage. But there are many records that need to stay with me. The office physically needs renovation and other work needs to be done. It can not be done with everything that is physically within the room.
Regarding office hours: Many times I cannot work in there because it is so hot. If I turn on the Township computer when it is hot and the window air conditioner is running, the house fuse blows. Having everything at the school would make the audits efficient. I was surprised to see 2 people get out of the car yesterday. I had to put out a card table for the second person. It is cramped.
Office hours during the day in summer are not possible because it is too hot and I can not run copies. Vic and Mark will tell you I have badgered them to death but not in public meetings.
Legal counsel has told me that because of the amount of abuse my family and I have suffered at home, that I should not be dealing with the public out of my house.
I am not getting any younger--I have had two trustees and the zoning inspector drop dead while I was in office.
Those are the reasons I want to make the move.
Jason: I think this meeting was coming to a head for a long time and it may not be as complex as it has been made to seem.
I think we need some kind of plan to get there.
Jason thought that Diamond Environmental should be gotten to test everything and asked John Festa about that. [Blogger: In context, this was clear: that the company be called to come out soon.]
Vic said he could call.
Jason instructed Vic about everything we would need to be covered as a public entity. He also, to Marie, said, "You have a drawing of how you want the room?"
Marie: I have drawn it many times. Some discussion about that followed.
Jason: We need to get a couple of contractors inside the building who can tell us exactly what we need and want to do.
There are volunteers who want to heop out. I do not necessarily see us hiring a general contractor to do the work but to manage the volunteers.
I will look into some aspect of [this] to get the ball rolling. I have asked Zoning about their requirements but have not received anything.
Lynn Harvey: I was not aware you were waiting. Vic took me thjrough a room like Marie Stehli's and I thought it would be good. It is bigger than what we need.
I am mystified as to why we need a general contractor. Paint, clean carpet, move cabinets in, and we are good to go.
I don't understand why we have to get all of this other stuff involved. We have a go ahead from the Portage County Building Department and now we have to get all of this other stuff. I would like to see us have a follow-up meeting to this when we have gotten answers. [?]
Firm up a short term plan and challenge the trustees to come up with a short term and a long range plan.
Vic: Maybe propose before we go too far along, a special meeting for a walk-through of the first floor so we are all on the same page.
John Festa: For the Trustees?
Vic: If all three of us meet, it would have to be open to the public.
Jason: Each room needs to be purposed.
Motion to adjourn at 11:00 a.m. Unanimous.
Sunday, July 1, 2012
May 30, 2012: Uses of School, Pt. 2; Public Comment also
This part of the report begins with discussion of renovation and repairs. I apologize for how long it is. There did not seem to be a logical place to stop without breaking the continuity.
Renovations and Repairs
Jason distinguished between what is needed and what is desired. He said that these are two different things. [No specific examples of the differences were given.]
The public need to have a building that is presentable and retains its historic character but that conveys a feeling that work has been done to bring it out.
Cost estimates: We need to go right down the line with everything that needs to be done. If we are going to open one room, we should get the whole floor open. The fiscal officer is not the only one who needs office space.
Needs: Paint, carpet the floor, tile, lighting, windows.
Sourcing dollars: We need to get a professional contractor--actually, more than one--to provide cost estimates. I would like to have someone who has painted to do that kind of work to manage volunteers.
This needs to be someone who is independent and professional and has the best interest of the township and community at heart.
Carole Pollard: Two things connect to your previous comments. One is the historical character of the building and I appreciate that you are taking that into account. Historical accuracy can't be imitated. I suggest that anyone who wants a wonderful experience go to Chagrin Falls and visit their Town Hall. It is a former opera house that burned, but they rebuilt it. It is a timber framed building, open clear to the ceiling, perhaps 30 feet. I am not saying we should do what they did. It is a wonderful building done sensitively and carefully. Also, they dealt with some accessibility issuers, not as challenging as what we have.
I talked with Dave Sommers a couple of times. The elevator at the County Prosecutor's Office (designed by Sommers' firm), added externally to a conventionally constructed building, cost $250,000. Getting into our building without damaging it or without spending more money than we did to buy the building would require some very creative solutions .
One more thing is that I understand that the floors in our building are concrete slabs. If they are solid concrete, you are not going to mess with them. There is wood over them, and if the floors appear to sag, it may be because the stringers have collapsed. I wonder if there is any asbestos in them at all; they look like naked concrete. I have serious doubts about whether the asbestos "issue" is a real issue. It has been laid to rest time after time, but it is like a hydra--cut off one head, and another pops up.
Jason: To address you last comment--I think that in my mind asbestos or any other contaminating materials need to be addressed before we begin tearing things out. I think it is absolutely a need before we go forward with our game plan. [Blogger: Didn't I just say that the issue had been dealt with time after time? How many more times does the wheel need to be reinvented, and how long will that take, being sure that "we do it right"?]
Linda Ehlert: Two things. I did get the name of a contractor from a historical engineer/architect in Kent. He has done some of the historic work on the Johnson Farm on Pioneer Trail and the restoration of the Mormon church in Kirtland. Dr. Robison in Kent said he would probably be reasonable because saving historic buildings is his forte.
Cal Brant came in about 9:45, which is around the time that Linda made the above comment.
Linda, continuing: I also wanted to say that from a historical perspective I have been working to see what I can do with major corporations that help communities. I have a commitment from one of them for paint. That could be starting with one room or more.
There are also grants available for restoring communities and community buildings. So, in the background, I am working like you. Some grants can be pretty liberal. I am more than happy to bring money in.
John Festa: I want to address the accessibility issues. John Festa referred toSaint Paul's Hospital/Hotel.
[Blogger: I believe that was in reference to the kind of lift that is in that structure. I also do not know whether "lift" means what most of us would call an elevator or whether it is something else that would address accessibility issues. Remember that John Festa works for an elevator company. That could mean expert advice for the township, or it could represent a conflict of interest.]
John Festa, continuing: A lift can be put into that building internally. It is expensive but it can be done without touching the outside. [Blogger: An associate of mine--MBA with an undergraduate degree in engineering--was an executive in Schindler Elevator's corporate offices for a number of years. His comment on retrofitting for an elevator is that it is extremely expensive and involves doing a complete structural analysis of the building. More time, more money.]
John Festa, continuing: I agree with Jason about the environmental issues before we attempt to put a nail in the wall. I want someone with credentials. I do not want it coming back 15 years in the future to haunt us.
[Blogger: The phrase "to haunt us" seems to come up frequently in John Festa's remarks.]
Continuing: Possible formation of a committee for the public to get involved. I do think they can have recommendations or [be] volunteers. Maybe we can get an architect or engineer and see what they will come up with. [Blogger: $$$$$$/TIME] We need to get the general public involved so people can see how their dollars are besing spent. Comply with the Ohio Building Code.
[Blogger: The section of the Ohio Building Code that now applies to the school building is Section 34, which considers historic buildings. Also, some members of the renewed Restoration Society thought we were a committee--a committee interested enough to be pro-active instead of waiting for someone to tell us we could serve.]
Pat Magyarics: To Jason: I remember you quoting your grandfather [Willis Carlton, a Township Trustee for 25 years] when you ran for this office and you wanted to follow in his legacy. I knew your grandfather--my grandparents knew yours. When I look at these buildings I see your grandparents--they left them to us to enjoy. I am one of the few surviving members of that [original] restoration society. I am hoping that 35 years or so from now someone says, "I remember him and he gave us this."
Do not discredit the local volunteers at all. They did a darned good job on these buildings. We have all worked together as local people and volunteers. Do not discredit the local people, because they can move mountains. I hope that someone down the road sometime can say, "We have this because of Jason."
Mark Hall: We have talked about office hours. Each of you has a home office but no one has set office hours--is that correct? [There were nods of agreement to that.]
Heating: The heating system has two modes--occupied and unoccupied. In the unoccupied mode, the system operates off one thermostat. Based on the west room upstairs, if that room is at 60 degrees, the room is safe. If the outside temperature goes above 50 degrees, it shuts down. It is a damper system but there are some ___ [Blogger: missed this word] It does maintain a plenum temperature. In the occupied mode, once the temperature goes above 60 degrees outside, the system shuts down as energy savings. You would want to have some heat upstairs. I wanted to offer that.
[Blogger: During the last part of his term as trustee, Mark paid special attention to the heating system and its controls and saved the Township a good deal of money in service charges. I also think I remember that the system had been misadjusted, and he corrected that.]
Mark, continuing: Concerning community involvement: We resurrected The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., and we have been looking at things. The estimate for the Fiscal Officer--we have an estimate of $1900. Working with the Trustees through the restoration society, we can look at getting something going with the trustees.
We can make it presentable as a keystone benchmark as a place to start.
We can keep an eye open to the long term. The trustees will need a place for an office--it could be the north room with nothing elaborate, the same for the east room, nothing elaborate but presentable.
We are here as a community group with an eye on the school.
.
The immediate need is to work with you to get space for the Fiscal Officer. Let's see what we can get going with a simple straightforward starting point. We are not talking about tearing out the walls.
Jason: I don't think we are talking about anything terribly difficult, but we need to look at it. There is an immediate need but there is also the vision down the road.
Mark Hall: Not Marie's office, but the officers who will work in that room. This is not for personal offices, but the office for the position, not the person.
Jason commented that the distinction seemed a bit like splitting hairs. Larry Leitzow muttered, but audibly, "He always splits hairs." This little snippet will make more sense later in the record.
Dave Pollard: Regarding the floors: The concrete floors were made to drain water, and all go to a drain that runs to the outside. That is why the floors all have a concavity. We put our winter shoes and gloves on the cold air returns [when we were going there]. There is a solid concrete floor.
Accessibility out front: The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., has been talking about ways to address that, but it is not immediate.
There are expensive ways to install a lift to get up to the entrance level. In the 70's, they raised $29,000 for restoration and renovation.
In Montville, $250,000 has been raised [for a cause of high concern to the residents].
Dave, continuing: Some solutions may not be as elegant as you might like, but they may be safer.
Jason, you brought up hazardous materials. That has been a point of contention. I have talked to people, and this includes myself, who would be willing to come up with the money to pay that [inspection] fee so there is no net cost to the taxpayer. Part of our goal is to do this at no net cost for the taxpayer. We want to see us in there. I think it is the best building. I have been in the village school--your uncle [Jerry Carlton] did a heck of a job but he had a lot of help with the hospital moving in.
Jason, to Dave: The historical society project, funding for the veterans' memorial project had trouble with funds.
[Blogger: All projects and all groups supporting them are not the same, and looking beyond the surface can often make it clear why some fail while others succeed. That truism applies here, too.]
Jason, continuing: Over 10-15 years it might be possible but I am skeptical about doing it now.
Dave: Under the new parameters, once that [designation on The National Register of Historic Places]comes through, then we are able to explore grant sources not available till then.
Carole Pollard: With a good enough cause, people are willing to raise the money. With Montville, they have raised that $250,000 with ethnic potluck dinners, 50-50 raffles, gun raffles, nights at the races--very common and ordinary things.
The [Record Courier] article about our first step towards historic designation got a lot of attention, and people were full of smiles about it. The enthusiasm that designation will get us will help fuel public support. That designation also really gives a huge impetus to favorable public opinion for that building and resistance to anything that would be seen as damaging it. It may be a double edged sword, but when you have people that excited about something, it's important.
Do you realize that the only three school buildings saved in Portage County are ours? Shalersville, your uncle's building [the Village school building], and ours. Nobody else has done that--nobody else. People have talked about what a treasure this area is and it is not advertised--the hiking trail, canoe livery, Pioneer Trail Orchards, the Mormon home, the Mormon Church. If you drive from our school building to the grain mill in Mantua via Center Road and Prospect Street, and look at what is there, we have a historic corridor. We already have a designated historic district.
Those things are all very important to people who are normally rather quiet, but they feel very deeply about these things.
I have one thing to say about the hairsplitting about whether we are renovating for Marie's office or for an office for the fiscal officer's position. There has been carping and complaining about Marie not having office hours, in spite of how much time she spends on the township business--with all that time, if the township computer and records are at the school, where do you think she would be? She would probably spend more time in her office in the school than the trustees would, excpet for Vic, who is kind of a captive audience.
Science is built on hairsplitting, and so are budgets, but I think the overarching thing is not that it is Marie's office or John Vechery's office, but that this is to house the position.
Cal Brant: I was wondering why the Trustees feel that we have an asset that we should not be using to bring in funding to offset the costs of the building.
Jason: Where did you get that idea?
Cal: You keep coming up with reasons not to move forward with it.
Jason: I think you misinterpreted that.
Cal: The fact that we are not occupying that building means that we are not able to apply for money grants. As far as wanting to have the whole building ready, I do not understand why you want to do it that way. The constant procrastination here is not creating any community enthusiasm at all, and I think part of the role of the trustees is to foster the community support.
Jason: I inherited this project. [When Jason was campaigning, his brochure said that he was accountable.]
If you got here early enough to pick up an agenda or hear what has been said . . . .[Blogger: Even if Cal had gotten to the meeting on time, if he had been last in line, he would still not have been able to get an agenda. There were very few, and they went fast.]
Jason: I have action items we need to address.
Sue Skrovan: I hope the trustees will realize what we have in that building. I work for a government office now. They bought the old fire station from the Township, which gave us money for our building. In the old [Village office] building, the police were in the basement and the clerk and assistant clerk had little better than closets. Council was in the same area. Zoning was in there also. The new (fire station) building was renovated. They had to get out of the original building because the roof was separating from the walls by 6 inches. The new building has no storage and no basement. We have file boxes already under our desks. The only place to store records is on a mezzanine or in a bay in the service garage. We have this building that is just a pure gem that can be a model for all of northeastern Portage County. We have the room--we just need to be creative.
John Festa: The village is in its predicament because of poor planning and making rash decisions.
Sue: I don't think we [the Township] have made rash decisions.
John Festa: We are going to take our time and do it right.
Sue: We have taken time. [Blogger: There was more, but you get the idea.]
Roger Hurd: Pat mentioned the 1970's. A lot of people spent many hours at the Civic Center. I was one. Sometimes there were too many and some had to be asked to leave. The church, Farm Bureau, LCA, and a number of other organizations contributed more than the trustees did. We can see that it [the Civic Center] is probably a lot like this--if a match were put to it it would go up in a flash. The Civic Center is a lot better than it was. I heard through the grapevine that the stage [could] be torn out and offices put there. Doing that would render the building useless and prevent any access to the basement except through the outside.
This building [the Township Hall] is a tinderbox.
The bond issue: It would probably go down to defeat because people are voting against bond issues and levies. Someone will say it went down to defeat because no one wanted the Center school. A bond issue could be used as a referendum but not a legitimate one.
If it is the intent to tear down the school, do it and suffer the consequences because they will be severe.
John Festa: [I think we need to] consider all options.
Roger: A bond issue?
John Festa: Just a consideration.
Roger: A bond issue? You need a building that is fire safe, water safe, and secure from forced entry from the outside. It is accessible to all people. I do not see any common sense approach [here].
Carol Srajer: The school or the annex or whatever is the center of our township and as it is now, if you want to do something with the clerk, you have to know where she lives. If you want to know about building something, you have to find out where that person lives.
For me, I would like to see all of our government in one place. Since the Board of Elections is using our building--this building here is a tinderbox. Maybe we should be having our meetings there [in the School]. Everyone would know that if you have a government issue, that is where you go. If you are new to the area, your neighbor knows where the school is.
Is it realistic to think that the whole floor can be done at one time? Get one [room] done and learn what the issues are and be wiser about the rest of them and find people to help. I understand looking 1, 5, and 10 years ahead--but we need to get something done.
Carole Pollard: Jason, "piecemeal" is just a derogatory word for phases. If you to one room at a time and do them nicely, people will get excited about [how] we are making progress. You can put up signage in the building saying what we have done.
Jason, no matter what you do, all of you sitting there are targets. No matter what you do, someone will say you just screwed up--no matter what you do. If you are frugal, someone will say, "Huh. Damned cheapskates." If you do it elegantly, someone will say, "Look at the money they have wasted." So you can't win by doing anything but the right thing, respecting the building and the legacy that has been left to us by your relatives, but that can be your legacy, too.
Reputations are established by people like Bernie Madoff and Russo and DeMauro [sp?]. A legacy was left by Teddy Roosevelt with the national parks, John Kennedy with the space program, and your uncle Jerry saving that building. He said that it would have been cheaper to tear it down and start over. A lot of us know your uncle from when he was a kid. How he got to the point of saving that building and wanting to call it "The Willis H. Carlton Opportunity Center" is a matter of wonder to all of us--but bless his heart for doing it. One way or another, you have a similar opportunity.
The [Center School] building is 75% paid off. I didn't pull that out of my left ear--I talked to Marie. There is a long, long list of everything that has been done in that building and most of it is not visible, but it is infrastructure and crucial to the continued viability of the building for the next 100 years. It doesn't show, so the trustees who worked on that have been beaten up regularly. To stop now, sell the building, or level it and try to start over--a new building with has a 35-50 year life expectancy. To produce the same number of square footage in a conventionally constructed building would cost $170 per square foot. That comes out to about $2.5 million just for the building and it would blow down in a tornado.
In Joplin, Missouri, last year, the oldest buildings were not damaged, or only minimally so. They were still standing. If the storm had occurred during the week, every kid in that school would have died. The school was reduced to matchsticks.
It has been said that kites fly highest against the wind. Winston Churchill said that. A difficult, worthy thing makes us grow. This building would do that..
Vic: One other thing about the building. We purchased the building in 2004. Final (blue?) prints were not available until 2006. It was a different building department [then] and that was why we split the building into three sections so we could work in phases on it. We began in the Education section because it was the hardest. There was never a definition for Assembly before. In a meeting with the architect there was finally agreement that it would be assembly [the gymnasium/annex]. Then we had the prints made out and we got a cost analysis and we beat every one of them.
The parking area was estimated at $40,000, but we did it for $28,000. We bid everything and we tested everything and it [testing for hazardous materials] came back negative. We have been doing it in phases and we did a lot of it ourselves with the road crew and the trustees and we took the time to do it on our schedule according to the best cost savings at the time.
The idea was not to make money but to offset costs. That is why we wanted to stay with non-profit oncwe we began renting it and making too much money, and we would have to pay taxes.
Blogger: One more post should do it. It has been a month since this meeting, and I had forgotten the specifics. A lot got said--both by residents and by the trustees--that people should know. In my view, Jason and John Festa are getting right to the edge of wearing out the fine-sounding phrases. And looking ahead 10 years should not take 10 years in the looking. One more thing: Before the 2011 election, the criticism heaped on Vic and Mark was that it had all taken too long. Now, suddenly, we really need to take our time, and John Festa, who is the one beating that drum the most, has gotten absolutely no criticism for it from the same person who regularly bullied Vic and Mark. Who was that, you might ask? Larry Leitzow.
Renovations and Repairs
Jason distinguished between what is needed and what is desired. He said that these are two different things. [No specific examples of the differences were given.]
The public need to have a building that is presentable and retains its historic character but that conveys a feeling that work has been done to bring it out.
Cost estimates: We need to go right down the line with everything that needs to be done. If we are going to open one room, we should get the whole floor open. The fiscal officer is not the only one who needs office space.
Needs: Paint, carpet the floor, tile, lighting, windows.
Sourcing dollars: We need to get a professional contractor--actually, more than one--to provide cost estimates. I would like to have someone who has painted to do that kind of work to manage volunteers.
This needs to be someone who is independent and professional and has the best interest of the township and community at heart.
Carole Pollard: Two things connect to your previous comments. One is the historical character of the building and I appreciate that you are taking that into account. Historical accuracy can't be imitated. I suggest that anyone who wants a wonderful experience go to Chagrin Falls and visit their Town Hall. It is a former opera house that burned, but they rebuilt it. It is a timber framed building, open clear to the ceiling, perhaps 30 feet. I am not saying we should do what they did. It is a wonderful building done sensitively and carefully. Also, they dealt with some accessibility issuers, not as challenging as what we have.
I talked with Dave Sommers a couple of times. The elevator at the County Prosecutor's Office (designed by Sommers' firm), added externally to a conventionally constructed building, cost $250,000. Getting into our building without damaging it or without spending more money than we did to buy the building would require some very creative solutions .
One more thing is that I understand that the floors in our building are concrete slabs. If they are solid concrete, you are not going to mess with them. There is wood over them, and if the floors appear to sag, it may be because the stringers have collapsed. I wonder if there is any asbestos in them at all; they look like naked concrete. I have serious doubts about whether the asbestos "issue" is a real issue. It has been laid to rest time after time, but it is like a hydra--cut off one head, and another pops up.
Jason: To address you last comment--I think that in my mind asbestos or any other contaminating materials need to be addressed before we begin tearing things out. I think it is absolutely a need before we go forward with our game plan. [Blogger: Didn't I just say that the issue had been dealt with time after time? How many more times does the wheel need to be reinvented, and how long will that take, being sure that "we do it right"?]
Linda Ehlert: Two things. I did get the name of a contractor from a historical engineer/architect in Kent. He has done some of the historic work on the Johnson Farm on Pioneer Trail and the restoration of the Mormon church in Kirtland. Dr. Robison in Kent said he would probably be reasonable because saving historic buildings is his forte.
Cal Brant came in about 9:45, which is around the time that Linda made the above comment.
Linda, continuing: I also wanted to say that from a historical perspective I have been working to see what I can do with major corporations that help communities. I have a commitment from one of them for paint. That could be starting with one room or more.
There are also grants available for restoring communities and community buildings. So, in the background, I am working like you. Some grants can be pretty liberal. I am more than happy to bring money in.
John Festa: I want to address the accessibility issues. John Festa referred toSaint Paul's Hospital/Hotel.
[Blogger: I believe that was in reference to the kind of lift that is in that structure. I also do not know whether "lift" means what most of us would call an elevator or whether it is something else that would address accessibility issues. Remember that John Festa works for an elevator company. That could mean expert advice for the township, or it could represent a conflict of interest.]
John Festa, continuing: A lift can be put into that building internally. It is expensive but it can be done without touching the outside. [Blogger: An associate of mine--MBA with an undergraduate degree in engineering--was an executive in Schindler Elevator's corporate offices for a number of years. His comment on retrofitting for an elevator is that it is extremely expensive and involves doing a complete structural analysis of the building. More time, more money.]
John Festa, continuing: I agree with Jason about the environmental issues before we attempt to put a nail in the wall. I want someone with credentials. I do not want it coming back 15 years in the future to haunt us.
[Blogger: The phrase "to haunt us" seems to come up frequently in John Festa's remarks.]
Continuing: Possible formation of a committee for the public to get involved. I do think they can have recommendations or [be] volunteers. Maybe we can get an architect or engineer and see what they will come up with. [Blogger: $$$$$$/TIME] We need to get the general public involved so people can see how their dollars are besing spent. Comply with the Ohio Building Code.
[Blogger: The section of the Ohio Building Code that now applies to the school building is Section 34, which considers historic buildings. Also, some members of the renewed Restoration Society thought we were a committee--a committee interested enough to be pro-active instead of waiting for someone to tell us we could serve.]
Pat Magyarics: To Jason: I remember you quoting your grandfather [Willis Carlton, a Township Trustee for 25 years] when you ran for this office and you wanted to follow in his legacy. I knew your grandfather--my grandparents knew yours. When I look at these buildings I see your grandparents--they left them to us to enjoy. I am one of the few surviving members of that [original] restoration society. I am hoping that 35 years or so from now someone says, "I remember him and he gave us this."
Do not discredit the local volunteers at all. They did a darned good job on these buildings. We have all worked together as local people and volunteers. Do not discredit the local people, because they can move mountains. I hope that someone down the road sometime can say, "We have this because of Jason."
Mark Hall: We have talked about office hours. Each of you has a home office but no one has set office hours--is that correct? [There were nods of agreement to that.]
Heating: The heating system has two modes--occupied and unoccupied. In the unoccupied mode, the system operates off one thermostat. Based on the west room upstairs, if that room is at 60 degrees, the room is safe. If the outside temperature goes above 50 degrees, it shuts down. It is a damper system but there are some ___ [Blogger: missed this word] It does maintain a plenum temperature. In the occupied mode, once the temperature goes above 60 degrees outside, the system shuts down as energy savings. You would want to have some heat upstairs. I wanted to offer that.
[Blogger: During the last part of his term as trustee, Mark paid special attention to the heating system and its controls and saved the Township a good deal of money in service charges. I also think I remember that the system had been misadjusted, and he corrected that.]
Mark, continuing: Concerning community involvement: We resurrected The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., and we have been looking at things. The estimate for the Fiscal Officer--we have an estimate of $1900. Working with the Trustees through the restoration society, we can look at getting something going with the trustees.
We can make it presentable as a keystone benchmark as a place to start.
We can keep an eye open to the long term. The trustees will need a place for an office--it could be the north room with nothing elaborate, the same for the east room, nothing elaborate but presentable.
We are here as a community group with an eye on the school.
.
The immediate need is to work with you to get space for the Fiscal Officer. Let's see what we can get going with a simple straightforward starting point. We are not talking about tearing out the walls.
Jason: I don't think we are talking about anything terribly difficult, but we need to look at it. There is an immediate need but there is also the vision down the road.
Mark Hall: Not Marie's office, but the officers who will work in that room. This is not for personal offices, but the office for the position, not the person.
Jason commented that the distinction seemed a bit like splitting hairs. Larry Leitzow muttered, but audibly, "He always splits hairs." This little snippet will make more sense later in the record.
Dave Pollard: Regarding the floors: The concrete floors were made to drain water, and all go to a drain that runs to the outside. That is why the floors all have a concavity. We put our winter shoes and gloves on the cold air returns [when we were going there]. There is a solid concrete floor.
Accessibility out front: The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., has been talking about ways to address that, but it is not immediate.
There are expensive ways to install a lift to get up to the entrance level. In the 70's, they raised $29,000 for restoration and renovation.
In Montville, $250,000 has been raised [for a cause of high concern to the residents].
Dave, continuing: Some solutions may not be as elegant as you might like, but they may be safer.
Jason, you brought up hazardous materials. That has been a point of contention. I have talked to people, and this includes myself, who would be willing to come up with the money to pay that [inspection] fee so there is no net cost to the taxpayer. Part of our goal is to do this at no net cost for the taxpayer. We want to see us in there. I think it is the best building. I have been in the village school--your uncle [Jerry Carlton] did a heck of a job but he had a lot of help with the hospital moving in.
Jason, to Dave: The historical society project, funding for the veterans' memorial project had trouble with funds.
[Blogger: All projects and all groups supporting them are not the same, and looking beyond the surface can often make it clear why some fail while others succeed. That truism applies here, too.]
Jason, continuing: Over 10-15 years it might be possible but I am skeptical about doing it now.
Dave: Under the new parameters, once that [designation on The National Register of Historic Places]comes through, then we are able to explore grant sources not available till then.
Carole Pollard: With a good enough cause, people are willing to raise the money. With Montville, they have raised that $250,000 with ethnic potluck dinners, 50-50 raffles, gun raffles, nights at the races--very common and ordinary things.
The [Record Courier] article about our first step towards historic designation got a lot of attention, and people were full of smiles about it. The enthusiasm that designation will get us will help fuel public support. That designation also really gives a huge impetus to favorable public opinion for that building and resistance to anything that would be seen as damaging it. It may be a double edged sword, but when you have people that excited about something, it's important.
Do you realize that the only three school buildings saved in Portage County are ours? Shalersville, your uncle's building [the Village school building], and ours. Nobody else has done that--nobody else. People have talked about what a treasure this area is and it is not advertised--the hiking trail, canoe livery, Pioneer Trail Orchards, the Mormon home, the Mormon Church. If you drive from our school building to the grain mill in Mantua via Center Road and Prospect Street, and look at what is there, we have a historic corridor. We already have a designated historic district.
Those things are all very important to people who are normally rather quiet, but they feel very deeply about these things.
I have one thing to say about the hairsplitting about whether we are renovating for Marie's office or for an office for the fiscal officer's position. There has been carping and complaining about Marie not having office hours, in spite of how much time she spends on the township business--with all that time, if the township computer and records are at the school, where do you think she would be? She would probably spend more time in her office in the school than the trustees would, excpet for Vic, who is kind of a captive audience.
Science is built on hairsplitting, and so are budgets, but I think the overarching thing is not that it is Marie's office or John Vechery's office, but that this is to house the position.
Cal Brant: I was wondering why the Trustees feel that we have an asset that we should not be using to bring in funding to offset the costs of the building.
Jason: Where did you get that idea?
Cal: You keep coming up with reasons not to move forward with it.
Jason: I think you misinterpreted that.
Cal: The fact that we are not occupying that building means that we are not able to apply for money grants. As far as wanting to have the whole building ready, I do not understand why you want to do it that way. The constant procrastination here is not creating any community enthusiasm at all, and I think part of the role of the trustees is to foster the community support.
Jason: I inherited this project. [When Jason was campaigning, his brochure said that he was accountable.]
If you got here early enough to pick up an agenda or hear what has been said . . . .[Blogger: Even if Cal had gotten to the meeting on time, if he had been last in line, he would still not have been able to get an agenda. There were very few, and they went fast.]
Jason: I have action items we need to address.
Sue Skrovan: I hope the trustees will realize what we have in that building. I work for a government office now. They bought the old fire station from the Township, which gave us money for our building. In the old [Village office] building, the police were in the basement and the clerk and assistant clerk had little better than closets. Council was in the same area. Zoning was in there also. The new (fire station) building was renovated. They had to get out of the original building because the roof was separating from the walls by 6 inches. The new building has no storage and no basement. We have file boxes already under our desks. The only place to store records is on a mezzanine or in a bay in the service garage. We have this building that is just a pure gem that can be a model for all of northeastern Portage County. We have the room--we just need to be creative.
John Festa: The village is in its predicament because of poor planning and making rash decisions.
Sue: I don't think we [the Township] have made rash decisions.
John Festa: We are going to take our time and do it right.
Sue: We have taken time. [Blogger: There was more, but you get the idea.]
Roger Hurd: Pat mentioned the 1970's. A lot of people spent many hours at the Civic Center. I was one. Sometimes there were too many and some had to be asked to leave. The church, Farm Bureau, LCA, and a number of other organizations contributed more than the trustees did. We can see that it [the Civic Center] is probably a lot like this--if a match were put to it it would go up in a flash. The Civic Center is a lot better than it was. I heard through the grapevine that the stage [could] be torn out and offices put there. Doing that would render the building useless and prevent any access to the basement except through the outside.
This building [the Township Hall] is a tinderbox.
The bond issue: It would probably go down to defeat because people are voting against bond issues and levies. Someone will say it went down to defeat because no one wanted the Center school. A bond issue could be used as a referendum but not a legitimate one.
If it is the intent to tear down the school, do it and suffer the consequences because they will be severe.
John Festa: [I think we need to] consider all options.
Roger: A bond issue?
John Festa: Just a consideration.
Roger: A bond issue? You need a building that is fire safe, water safe, and secure from forced entry from the outside. It is accessible to all people. I do not see any common sense approach [here].
Carol Srajer: The school or the annex or whatever is the center of our township and as it is now, if you want to do something with the clerk, you have to know where she lives. If you want to know about building something, you have to find out where that person lives.
For me, I would like to see all of our government in one place. Since the Board of Elections is using our building--this building here is a tinderbox. Maybe we should be having our meetings there [in the School]. Everyone would know that if you have a government issue, that is where you go. If you are new to the area, your neighbor knows where the school is.
Is it realistic to think that the whole floor can be done at one time? Get one [room] done and learn what the issues are and be wiser about the rest of them and find people to help. I understand looking 1, 5, and 10 years ahead--but we need to get something done.
Carole Pollard: Jason, "piecemeal" is just a derogatory word for phases. If you to one room at a time and do them nicely, people will get excited about [how] we are making progress. You can put up signage in the building saying what we have done.
Jason, no matter what you do, all of you sitting there are targets. No matter what you do, someone will say you just screwed up--no matter what you do. If you are frugal, someone will say, "Huh. Damned cheapskates." If you do it elegantly, someone will say, "Look at the money they have wasted." So you can't win by doing anything but the right thing, respecting the building and the legacy that has been left to us by your relatives, but that can be your legacy, too.
Reputations are established by people like Bernie Madoff and Russo and DeMauro [sp?]. A legacy was left by Teddy Roosevelt with the national parks, John Kennedy with the space program, and your uncle Jerry saving that building. He said that it would have been cheaper to tear it down and start over. A lot of us know your uncle from when he was a kid. How he got to the point of saving that building and wanting to call it "The Willis H. Carlton Opportunity Center" is a matter of wonder to all of us--but bless his heart for doing it. One way or another, you have a similar opportunity.
The [Center School] building is 75% paid off. I didn't pull that out of my left ear--I talked to Marie. There is a long, long list of everything that has been done in that building and most of it is not visible, but it is infrastructure and crucial to the continued viability of the building for the next 100 years. It doesn't show, so the trustees who worked on that have been beaten up regularly. To stop now, sell the building, or level it and try to start over--a new building with has a 35-50 year life expectancy. To produce the same number of square footage in a conventionally constructed building would cost $170 per square foot. That comes out to about $2.5 million just for the building and it would blow down in a tornado.
In Joplin, Missouri, last year, the oldest buildings were not damaged, or only minimally so. They were still standing. If the storm had occurred during the week, every kid in that school would have died. The school was reduced to matchsticks.
It has been said that kites fly highest against the wind. Winston Churchill said that. A difficult, worthy thing makes us grow. This building would do that..
Vic: One other thing about the building. We purchased the building in 2004. Final (blue?) prints were not available until 2006. It was a different building department [then] and that was why we split the building into three sections so we could work in phases on it. We began in the Education section because it was the hardest. There was never a definition for Assembly before. In a meeting with the architect there was finally agreement that it would be assembly [the gymnasium/annex]. Then we had the prints made out and we got a cost analysis and we beat every one of them.
The parking area was estimated at $40,000, but we did it for $28,000. We bid everything and we tested everything and it [testing for hazardous materials] came back negative. We have been doing it in phases and we did a lot of it ourselves with the road crew and the trustees and we took the time to do it on our schedule according to the best cost savings at the time.
The idea was not to make money but to offset costs. That is why we wanted to stay with non-profit oncwe we began renting it and making too much money, and we would have to pay taxes.
Blogger: One more post should do it. It has been a month since this meeting, and I had forgotten the specifics. A lot got said--both by residents and by the trustees--that people should know. In my view, Jason and John Festa are getting right to the edge of wearing out the fine-sounding phrases. And looking ahead 10 years should not take 10 years in the looking. One more thing: Before the 2011 election, the criticism heaped on Vic and Mark was that it had all taken too long. Now, suddenly, we really need to take our time, and John Festa, who is the one beating that drum the most, has gotten absolutely no criticism for it from the same person who regularly bullied Vic and Mark. Who was that, you might ask? Larry Leitzow.
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