Blogger foreword: Well, things are still packed, but somehow the blog has to get shoehorned in before the next meeting. So here goes. I will try to condense and summarize as much as possible.
John Festa commented on the ditching and culvert work on Pioneer Trail, begun by Mike Kodash and then assigned to the Township road crew. He thought they did a great job and trimming up the area with some landscaping stone made it look very nice.
Jason scheduled a special meeting, a workshop to do a small government application for Round 27 funding to do work on the roads in Aurora Meadows, Winchell Road, and John Edward Drive. The meeting was scheduled for October 9 at 6:30 p.m. in the Township Hall.
Jason also reported on attending a Chagrin River Watershed Partners meeting which included some discussion about oil and gas drilling in urban areas--people who live in such areas are very concerned about drilling there.
In Ohio, 375 permits have been pulled this year and 135 wells drilled. Projected number of wells by 2013 is 650, with a total of over 1,000 by 2015.
Seismic surveys have been conducted moving from the south to the north to determine whether there are deposits. Citizens' groups have been trying to get local governments to take more control, but ODNR Division of Gas and Oil has control over this, not local governments. [Translation: If all of this upsets you, contacting the trustees will not help--go higher. I don't know to whom, but the laws cut the trustees out of this process.] Jason reported that some municipalities are trying to get ballot issues up to ban oil and gas drilling. But state law trumps local law, and the local governments can be sued.
Pooling was also discussed: If an individual does not own the mandatory 40 acres to drill, then owners have to pool their property if they want to gain anything from the drilling.
Vic announced that the Portage County Health Department want to set up a flu clinic for October 15 at the Civic Center from 4-6 p.m. More information to follow.
Aurora and Bainbridge are cooperating in paving Krackel Road near Chamberlin. Krackel will be closed until November 5.
Vic has gotten a couple of quotes from Yarnell and Dominic's to remove a dead elm tree: $650 for the tree from Dominic's and $750 from Yarnell, plus another $100 to remove the stump. Jason asked about the funds; Marie stated that there is only $100 left in the Town Hall maintenance fund (the beginning amount earlier in the year was $1,000). The way things are listed in the budget, the money could be pulled from the maintenance and repairs fund allocated to the Civic Center.
After more discussion, Vic moved to have Dominic's remove the tree and the stump; Jason seconded. Unanimous. The money will be transferred from the parks account.
Township Hall
Vic and a volunteer cleaned t he gutters, one side of which was partially plugged and the other completely plugged. [Vic had said a while ago that the only time actual water showed up in the basement was when the gutters have been plugged and we have gotten a lot of rain.]
There was information and detail about better gutters and leaf shields. The downspouts don't have enough pitch to drain really well. Without leaf shields, which solve one problem but cause another, cost to replace gutters with larger ones would be about $985.
John Festa: Wanted to dig a test hole to see how far the foundation goes down. He acknowledged that there is some concern (three experienced people have advised against digging too close to the foundations) that the wall would blow out, so his opinion was that if we got a couple of jacks down there and supported the wall, there should be no problem.
Continuing: I want to see what we have to do to get the water problem solved [Blogger: If there is a water problem; a number of people with experience with the building doubt that there is].
Continuing: I think our guys can take care of that--get it done ASAP and see what we are in for.
He then said he wanted to know where the septic tanks and lines are around the Township Hall. Vic explained. John Festa asked if the road crew knew where everything was, and Vic recommended someone who could determine where everything went.
Vic also explained that a gas line runs through the area as well.
Jason asked if there were any more updates about the Town Hall.
John Festa is still working on getting hold of John Frost.
Jason: The Center School. Jason brought up the topic of the environmental study. Vic has gotten quotes from Diamond Environmental, which has given quotes in the past. That price is the same as before.
HCW [?], from Mentor, provided a quote which included many disclaimers, but would test for lead-based paint, but that item on the bid/estimate is open because there is no indication of the number of samples. That firm would also test for asbestos and mold, with 75 samples for asbestos and 45 for lead based paint. There would be 16 mold tests and 16 mold samples, and shipping and handling to the independent lab would be added. The base fee [if I am reading my notes accurately after nearly 2 weeks] is $5900, with sampling another $2700 and shipping fees added to it all.
Mold is sampled by taking two readings, one inside the building and the other outside to compare the air samples because there are no standards for mold readings inside a building. So a group will be taken on each floor and then again outside.
Diamond Environmental quoted a price of $3150.
Vic pointed out that both firms have had representatives go through the building and have taken photos. The fees depend on how many samples are taken. Diamond Environmental does a lot of work for the post office, and this is the firm that did the first test on the hallway--[which the firm said was OK, and go ahead on things.] Vic said that the samples had been taken in June and sent out to an independent lab. The person who took the samples sent back both the lab report and his own report.
Vic thought that the large amount of paper work that HCW does accounts for the higher cost. He asked John Festa for his thoughts.
[HCW had submitted 11 pages, and John Festa seemed nonplused at that, from the way he sounded. But that is what he asked for--detail. He commented that most of it is to protect them and keep us from coming after them. Did he expect anything different? He says continually that he does not want any of this to come back and bite us--well, here is a company operating the same way. Where's the problem?]
Jason said to take a look at it and they would review it later in the meeting. [I don't know what the point of this is, unless it is to defer time consuming discussions until after the video equipment has been taken away--a way of keeping the cost down to the people who are paying Brent Simon. In my opinion, it is not Jason's or any other trustee's responsibility to protect those people from the consequences and expense of deciding to video tape the meetings.]
Jason mentioned the work listing that he handed out before the meeting. He had listed work to be done on the first floor of the school, room. The analysis included specifications for carpet, painting the walls, ceilings, and woodwork, with full cleanup on finishing. He asked Vic and John Festa if they had any additions or corrections. Vic addressed the lighting.
Jason said he wanted to move from the draft to a final.version so we can send it out for bids. He also said he wanted to see what the project was going to cost as a whole as well as in parts.
John Festa commented on truck repairs on the Stirling, with the turbo charger. When it was checked at Freight Liner in Cleveland, a loose wire was discovered and repaired at no charge.
Perhaps on the same truck or on one of the other two, John Festa had asked Brian Tayerle and Mike Richards if they could find something about fixing the bed on it. A bed in PA would cost $5200, but it is almost in New Jersey--about a 10-hour trip one way. So it will have to be repaired here.
There was discussion about tires on one of the other trucks.
John Festa thought it was time to begin looking for something bigger with 4-wheel drive to have a plow on it and pull a trailer. Jason asked if John Festa knew what the MSFD had paid for theirs.
John Festa commented that the Village has a new truck also. [Did I miss something, or is this keeping up with the Joneses?]
There being no other new business, it was time for public comment.
.
Sunday, September 30, 2012
Sunday, September 23, 2012
Last of Public Comment, 9-5-12, Mantua Twp. Trustees
The previous post concluded with the exchange between Cal Brant and John Festa.
Jason picked up on his part of the ostensible progress on the school with this : I am going to type this up [his specifications list of work to be done, in his estimation] and we all can agree on it. I do not want to piecemeal this together, and I do not want to manage volunteers. [Wouldn't managing volunteers in a construction/remodeling project require some experience in both construction and management, as well as--after all of the concern about asbestos and lead-based paint certification, never mind that children were in the school in 2004 when the Trustees purchased it--the proper certification? And if you kept up with that syntax, good job, reader!]
Jason continued: What Kirkpatrick told me was he does not want 10 people in the building at once. He would have a couple of other people with him to manage the volunteers. We can guarantee a certain number of hours and workers.
Roger Hurd and Dan Cozzens had no comment.
Dawn Pechman (giving neither her name nor address): I just would like to know when I can expect my records request. I am looking for all of the replies from the fiscal officer. I would like to receive by e-mail the trustee packets.
Jason: The packets are paper packets [not electronic/e-mail ones]. [Blogger note: Our government has all kinds of laws stating that records of publicly-funded entities be available to the public on request. There may or may not be a fee. The laws and policies also state that a record can only be provided in the form in which it was originally created. Since our trustees' packets for each meeting are paper, there is no obligation to fill Dawn's request. A government entity is not required to create a new record to fill a request, either. So a person could request the time slips for employees, but not an analysis of how the time was spent if that is not part of the employer's practice.] So Jason's response was the correct one.
Dawn: You are going to have to have a resolution to cut down the bushes [outside the Town Hall]. [Blogger: This is a reference to a resolution passed several years ago after Dawn butchered--excuse me, pruned--the burning bush shrubs along the front of the Township Hall. The resolution stated that no such work was to be done without the knowledge and consent of the trustees--and perhaps not without their supervision, but I am not sure about that.]
Dawn kept pushing for e-mail notifications of various meetings and special meetings.
Jason: They are not in digital format. For now they will be made available to you in paper.
Dawn: Can I be notified by e-mail of special meetings?
Marie: Not by me. Dawn has an outstanding records request that has not been paid for. [Blogger: I think it is correct that Marie said that the request had not been paid for.]
Jason, to Brent Simon: Are we close to posting the minutes?
Brent: We can put the minutes up in digital format, but they will not be the final, corrected minutes.
Marie: There is a problem with numbering the pages. [Note: Because the minutes are legal documents in a ledger book (I am not sure of the correct term), how the pages are numbered is prescribed and must be accurate and consistent, to the best of my knowledge.]
Brent: If someone had a legal sized scanner, we could do it.
John Festa said he has one and opined that everybody has a scanner these days. They cost about $90.00.
Odds and ends: I am not sure what is going to be done about posting minutes on the official township website.
Also, as context, I think Dawn also complained about having to pick up minutes in a parking lot. That happens to be the Township Hall lot at the Mantua Center green, in broad daylight, not some dark, rat-infested back alley, as her indignant tone might be interpreted to imply . I have met Marie there a couple of times for records. She arrives at the appointed time, delivers the records and collects payment, and waits a reasonable length of time for the requestor if necessary. A good deal more could be said about this, but that will do for now.
More perspective and context: Jason's responses about records in this post, and his comments on the topic at the September 20 meeting after getting advice from Chris Meduri, are just part of Dawn's long-continued demands to get what the law does not require anyone to give her. E-mail, of course, would not include a fee, as paper records do.
Jason picked up on his part of the ostensible progress on the school with this : I am going to type this up [his specifications list of work to be done, in his estimation] and we all can agree on it. I do not want to piecemeal this together, and I do not want to manage volunteers. [Wouldn't managing volunteers in a construction/remodeling project require some experience in both construction and management, as well as--after all of the concern about asbestos and lead-based paint certification, never mind that children were in the school in 2004 when the Trustees purchased it--the proper certification? And if you kept up with that syntax, good job, reader!]
Jason continued: What Kirkpatrick told me was he does not want 10 people in the building at once. He would have a couple of other people with him to manage the volunteers. We can guarantee a certain number of hours and workers.
Roger Hurd and Dan Cozzens had no comment.
Dawn Pechman (giving neither her name nor address): I just would like to know when I can expect my records request. I am looking for all of the replies from the fiscal officer. I would like to receive by e-mail the trustee packets.
Jason: The packets are paper packets [not electronic/e-mail ones]. [Blogger note: Our government has all kinds of laws stating that records of publicly-funded entities be available to the public on request. There may or may not be a fee. The laws and policies also state that a record can only be provided in the form in which it was originally created. Since our trustees' packets for each meeting are paper, there is no obligation to fill Dawn's request. A government entity is not required to create a new record to fill a request, either. So a person could request the time slips for employees, but not an analysis of how the time was spent if that is not part of the employer's practice.] So Jason's response was the correct one.
Dawn: You are going to have to have a resolution to cut down the bushes [outside the Town Hall]. [Blogger: This is a reference to a resolution passed several years ago after Dawn butchered--excuse me, pruned--the burning bush shrubs along the front of the Township Hall. The resolution stated that no such work was to be done without the knowledge and consent of the trustees--and perhaps not without their supervision, but I am not sure about that.]
Dawn kept pushing for e-mail notifications of various meetings and special meetings.
Jason: They are not in digital format. For now they will be made available to you in paper.
Dawn: Can I be notified by e-mail of special meetings?
Marie: Not by me. Dawn has an outstanding records request that has not been paid for. [Blogger: I think it is correct that Marie said that the request had not been paid for.]
Jason, to Brent Simon: Are we close to posting the minutes?
Brent: We can put the minutes up in digital format, but they will not be the final, corrected minutes.
Marie: There is a problem with numbering the pages. [Note: Because the minutes are legal documents in a ledger book (I am not sure of the correct term), how the pages are numbered is prescribed and must be accurate and consistent, to the best of my knowledge.]
Brent: If someone had a legal sized scanner, we could do it.
John Festa said he has one and opined that everybody has a scanner these days. They cost about $90.00.
Odds and ends: I am not sure what is going to be done about posting minutes on the official township website.
Also, as context, I think Dawn also complained about having to pick up minutes in a parking lot. That happens to be the Township Hall lot at the Mantua Center green, in broad daylight, not some dark, rat-infested back alley, as her indignant tone might be interpreted to imply . I have met Marie there a couple of times for records. She arrives at the appointed time, delivers the records and collects payment, and waits a reasonable length of time for the requestor if necessary. A good deal more could be said about this, but that will do for now.
More perspective and context: Jason's responses about records in this post, and his comments on the topic at the September 20 meeting after getting advice from Chris Meduri, are just part of Dawn's long-continued demands to get what the law does not require anyone to give her. E-mail, of course, would not include a fee, as paper records do.
Thursday, September 20, 2012
Mantua Township Trustees Mtg. Public Comment 9-5-12
Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: Since Lynn Harvey was not at the meeting, I reported on the volunteers who have contacted The Mantua Restoration Society to offer their skills in working on the school to get the Fiscal Officer's area ready to use. There are about a dozen, who can do everything from just "gopher" to install insulation, hang and finish drywall, frame, and generally do the kind of remodeling work that will be necessary.
Then, despite the fact that the previous couple of hours struck me as the equivalent of 30 pounds of nonsense in a 2-pound bag, I tried to address some of what had been mentioned in the meeting. Never knowing whether one's comments will be shut off at the whim or displeasure of the chairman adds to the pressure to cover as much ground as possible but makes doing it logically very difficult. In short, it was mission impossible. But I floundered into it.
Here is what I remember of the impromptu attempt: That the information from the Ohio Historic Preservation Office was very thorough, technically backed up with good, professional and scientific sources, and detailed enough to serve as a guideline for even a relatively inexperienced person to follow effectively.
I urged the trustees to keep it simple, instead of letting the job [every job, actually, based on observation] grow and grow. I think I urged that in particular for the Township Hall: address the ventilation problem and see how things work.
That's enough of that.
Jim Aldrich and Amy Janca had no comment.
Barb Herbold thanked Vic and Brian Tayerle for the mowing at the west side of the cemetery, which looks much better now.
Mark Hall, Loris Drive: Since you are going to be looking at material studies at the school, be sure to look at the tiles. Even though by definition 9 x 9 tile is said to be asbestos, be sure not to overlook those.
I do have a bit of concern on the party that would like exclusive rental rights on the gymnasium. That would preclude anyone else from getting in. There may be an accommodation.
The last item is the motion for executive session. It was for personnel matters, discipline, and promotion. I know discipline is under one of the areas of executive session. I don't recall promotion being included in that category.
Jason referred to page 91 of the Sunshine Laws, and Mark responded that he was not sure about one of them.
Dave Pollard, S.R. 82: I will try to keep this brief. I talked to Jim Kotkowski some years ago about digging along one side of my house, which has a sandstone foundation. That house was built during the Civil War and it has footer drains. What Jim said and another friend corroborated is that if you dig too close to a wall with a backhoe, you risk blowing the wall. You have to get several feet away and you can still get the water away [working at that distance].
A footer drain if you were going to go to that expense will not solve the moisture. On the north side of the building you can see that it is the first floor that has the moisture, not the second floor. The heavier moist air drops into the basement. The fact that the basement did not flood last year indicates that there is no water problem. Eric Hummel and John Vechery both said that the ground around the building is very hard clay.
Also, I have found a couple of trailer axles and a hitch and am working on it and will be able to get that trailer out of there [at the school building].
Steve Zielinski to Marie: Who designed the floor plan for the school [the drawings Marie presented at the beginning of the meeting].
Marie: I did.
Steve: Who drew it up?
Marie: The original architectural drawing was done by Dave Summers [Blogger: The architect who did the site assessment of the building when the trustees purchased it}.
Steve: OK.
Cal Brant, Wayne Road: I am confused about this process of going over and over things. I thought we had someone come in and give recommendations abouit how to do this and then Kirkpatrick and now we are talking about it again.
How long are we going to keep getting these recommendations [Blogger: which all say the same thing--that we can spot test and do a room at a time] without doing anything? What do you think is going to take place with an environmental study?
John Festa: I don't know. I am not an expert. [Blogger: But we have had expert after expert come in and look at the building. Despite their expert status, are they not saying what John Festa wants to hear?]
Cal: Who was the person who came from Mentor?
Vic: He was an inspector and tester.
Cal: So we are not going to use him.
Vic: We are going to call him back in. We can test room by room and the tests are very cheap.
Cal: We also have people with certification, so that if we go about working in that room, we can tell what has to be done. To John Festa: What are you looking for? First of all, insurance is a help, but it does not cover everything. We have somebody who gave recommendation and we are going to get them in. Are you going to follow their recommendations? Then what?
Cal: Are you going to go room by room--[start with] Marie Stehli's room since we want to get her in there?
John Festa: It is my intention to have the whole building checked. Eventually we are going to have the whole bilding checked.
Cal: Are you aware of how to go about renovation?
JF: I do it every day. [!]
Cal: Are you going to hire someone like Kirkpatrick and is he going to oversee the volunteers based on the sheet you have, and are you going to present that?
How are you going to get a contractor to bid on this not knowing what kind of volunteers you have? [Blogger: To be frank, I do not know whether Cal or John Festa said that.]
Then, despite the fact that the previous couple of hours struck me as the equivalent of 30 pounds of nonsense in a 2-pound bag, I tried to address some of what had been mentioned in the meeting. Never knowing whether one's comments will be shut off at the whim or displeasure of the chairman adds to the pressure to cover as much ground as possible but makes doing it logically very difficult. In short, it was mission impossible. But I floundered into it.
Here is what I remember of the impromptu attempt: That the information from the Ohio Historic Preservation Office was very thorough, technically backed up with good, professional and scientific sources, and detailed enough to serve as a guideline for even a relatively inexperienced person to follow effectively.
I urged the trustees to keep it simple, instead of letting the job [every job, actually, based on observation] grow and grow. I think I urged that in particular for the Township Hall: address the ventilation problem and see how things work.
That's enough of that.
Jim Aldrich and Amy Janca had no comment.
Barb Herbold thanked Vic and Brian Tayerle for the mowing at the west side of the cemetery, which looks much better now.
Mark Hall, Loris Drive: Since you are going to be looking at material studies at the school, be sure to look at the tiles. Even though by definition 9 x 9 tile is said to be asbestos, be sure not to overlook those.
I do have a bit of concern on the party that would like exclusive rental rights on the gymnasium. That would preclude anyone else from getting in. There may be an accommodation.
The last item is the motion for executive session. It was for personnel matters, discipline, and promotion. I know discipline is under one of the areas of executive session. I don't recall promotion being included in that category.
Jason referred to page 91 of the Sunshine Laws, and Mark responded that he was not sure about one of them.
Dave Pollard, S.R. 82: I will try to keep this brief. I talked to Jim Kotkowski some years ago about digging along one side of my house, which has a sandstone foundation. That house was built during the Civil War and it has footer drains. What Jim said and another friend corroborated is that if you dig too close to a wall with a backhoe, you risk blowing the wall. You have to get several feet away and you can still get the water away [working at that distance].
A footer drain if you were going to go to that expense will not solve the moisture. On the north side of the building you can see that it is the first floor that has the moisture, not the second floor. The heavier moist air drops into the basement. The fact that the basement did not flood last year indicates that there is no water problem. Eric Hummel and John Vechery both said that the ground around the building is very hard clay.
Also, I have found a couple of trailer axles and a hitch and am working on it and will be able to get that trailer out of there [at the school building].
Steve Zielinski to Marie: Who designed the floor plan for the school [the drawings Marie presented at the beginning of the meeting].
Marie: I did.
Steve: Who drew it up?
Marie: The original architectural drawing was done by Dave Summers [Blogger: The architect who did the site assessment of the building when the trustees purchased it}.
Steve: OK.
Cal Brant, Wayne Road: I am confused about this process of going over and over things. I thought we had someone come in and give recommendations abouit how to do this and then Kirkpatrick and now we are talking about it again.
How long are we going to keep getting these recommendations [Blogger: which all say the same thing--that we can spot test and do a room at a time] without doing anything? What do you think is going to take place with an environmental study?
John Festa: I don't know. I am not an expert. [Blogger: But we have had expert after expert come in and look at the building. Despite their expert status, are they not saying what John Festa wants to hear?]
Cal: Who was the person who came from Mentor?
Vic: He was an inspector and tester.
Cal: So we are not going to use him.
Vic: We are going to call him back in. We can test room by room and the tests are very cheap.
Cal: We also have people with certification, so that if we go about working in that room, we can tell what has to be done. To John Festa: What are you looking for? First of all, insurance is a help, but it does not cover everything. We have somebody who gave recommendation and we are going to get them in. Are you going to follow their recommendations? Then what?
Cal: Are you going to go room by room--[start with] Marie Stehli's room since we want to get her in there?
John Festa: It is my intention to have the whole building checked. Eventually we are going to have the whole bilding checked.
Cal: Are you aware of how to go about renovation?
JF: I do it every day. [!]
Cal: Are you going to hire someone like Kirkpatrick and is he going to oversee the volunteers based on the sheet you have, and are you going to present that?
How are you going to get a contractor to bid on this not knowing what kind of volunteers you have? [Blogger: To be frank, I do not know whether Cal or John Festa said that.]
Painting Twp. Hall--9-5-12 Trustees Mtg.
Blogger Foreword: It has been a really busy, packed time for this whole couple of weeks. Yesterday, September 19, I went to a Heritage Ohio workshop in Port Clinton on community branding and identity. Very interesting. For one thing, a community's brand is not a slogan, logo, main attraction, architecture, or school district. Many of those things help personify the brand, but they are not the brand and do not necessarily create it.
This is the definition that was given: The brand is the cumulative results of all interactions (tangible and intangible) that the target audience members have with or about any aspect of your organization.
These days, the first contact that people probably have with a community or organization is a website. Those sites are the first impression a virtual visitor gets, and you only get one chance to make a first impression. That impression may encourage viewers or leave a bad taste in their mouths.
During discussion, one of the workshop attendees commented on the tone of Port Clinton's website--that it seemed a little apologetic. Fixing that seems relatively easy.
If sites are similarly titled, the one that gets the most hits is the one that comes up first. What if the first thing you saw on the front page of the Record Courier was "Sound Off!"? One of the nastier examples of "Sound Off!", that is.
The workshop was interesting but struck me as more relevant to urban areas. However, the concepts gave lots of food for thought. One more thing: The brand identity is defined by the audience, not by the entity that is trying to create the identity, because so much of brand identity comes from the experience of the audience.
OK for that. Now, to the topic at hand, stated above.
Painting the Town Hall
After a quick summary of what had been done on Remington Point, Linda Ehlert had the floor to report on issues having to do with painting the Town Hall.
Linda: After our last meeting I e-mailed the Ohio Historic Preservation Office and have given [that information] to you. [Blogger: Printed out, it is about 16 pages worth in one item and several more in the less detailed, less technical one.]
The problem we have with the building is common to old buildings. The thing that was very interesting and that I wanted to talk about is because some of this information is so important.
If latex paint is applied over chalking or peeling, the latex will not adhere.
The information tells not to power wash or blast the wood with anything when cleaning. The washing forces water into the wood and blasting damages the wood.
It takes a whole year after one of these procedures for a building to dry. This absolutely causes water problems and bad adhesion for the paint.
Also, you have to use oil paint, alkyd primer and paint after sanding because latex will not adhere without a primer.
Linda pointed out a picture in the information packet illustrating why paint must be feathered by sanding, rather than just being scraped, with a sharp edge left between paint and wood. Sanding must be by hand and not by machine.
There was also some good information on reparing rotted wood and wet basements. They asked us if we wanted to take pictures--they could tell us what is wrong.
They asked if we had a plan and indicated that ventilation was probably a problem. [Blogger: It seems to me that "ventilation" sounds a teensy bit familiar--as in having been mentioned by almost everyone but John Festa--since the topic of painting the hall was introduced months ago. He may finally have mentioned ventilation at the last meeting or so.]
Linda: We were upstairs getting ready for the potato festival and talked about cellulose and they said there was no cellulose and no insulation up there. [Blogger: I don't know who "they" may be, here. Someone who has been around for a long time and is familiar with the building, I assume.]
Linda: The person in Columbus said that if we sent photos and a plan of what we wanted to do, they would send us suggestions.
They suggested that if we are not sure, to get an engineer rather than contractors, because opinions will differ and the engineer will know what to do. [Cal Brant said this almost two months ago and was not merely ignored, but cut off, if I remember correctly.]
Linda: If you put vinyl siding on, that is the last thing they want anyone to do and it would result in the building being removed from the National Register of Historic Places.
Old buildings take special care to get to last, but the preparation is crucial. [Blogger: Again, Cal said this early on--and was ignored.]
[Blogger: I believe that Linda also mentioned that masonry should not be power washed, either. That advice is in the same packet of information, which I had read before the meeting and may therefore not have taken down in my notes from Linda's remarks.]
Linda, continuing: I also checked a little about grants, but the funding is not available until next April. There is now a tax check-off for historic preservation. I can look next week when this grant possibility goes on line. Buildings on the National Register of Historic Places get preference. Up to $20,000 is available. We may not want or be able to wait that long. This concluded Linda's presentation.
John Festa reported on meeting with Jim Kotkowski about the drainage around the building. [Blogger: Since I was not at that meeting, this post will contain only what John Festa said on his own behalf about the situation.] He said that upon looking at the building, "we seen " that there were all kinds of things very close to the foundations like gas lines and plantings that would have to be removed to do any digging. He commented that it got bigger every time he looked at it. He said that he had called John Frost [mentioned in an earlier post], but he is tied up and will call back as soon as possible
John Festa, continuing: I looked at the foundation in the basement and it looks as if the foundation is set about three feet deep. The sandstone needs to be power washed [Blogger: see the remarks above about power washing brick; sandstone is similarly porous] and pointed and other work done.
Vic: I think the first thing is to clean the gutters. The only time I have seen water in the basement is after a really heavy rain. We need to maike sure that the downspout is open because if that is plugged, then there is a water problem.
Then, commenting on the digging idea: This is definitely a major works project. Vic also said something about getting a true professional in to look at it and make a recommendation, but he trailed off on that.
Then:
Vic: We don't know how much weight of the building is sitting on the stone and we do not want to move the dirt away because the wall might fall down. The only time there is obvious water is when the downspout overflows. I would be skeptical of digging beside the stone. A curtain drain would eliminate some worry.
John Festa: I don't think that will solve the problem but I am not an expert.
Jason asked how to seal the stone.
Vic: You can point it and put insulating rope into it, but I do not know what will stick to sandstone. The only thing that will grow and stick to sandstone is mold. I don't know whether pointing would stay or whether it would crack again.
I think the first thing is to clean the downspouts.
John Festa: Do we know anyone who can do that? [!!!! This, from the person who wants "our guys" to do everything.]
Cal Brant: If you get a good person to clean them out, there is something called Leaf Guard that will help. There is a way to deal with the sandstone. Cal described that, a detailed process that involves a gravel layer, a coating, and a membrane in conjunction with 2" thick rigid insulation, plus a procedure called "pargeing." The dirt is then replaced and compacted to protect against frost against the wall.
Cal: It is very doable and there are volunteers in the township, and we could do a wall at a time.
Jason: We need to get some experts. [Blogger: I have heard the phrase "Ready, fire, aim," and have even considered how it applies to myself. In small ways, it is almost comical. In this situation, it seems to me that after having been raised in April or May, finally the problem is being addressed thoughtfully--and the idea of experts is being mentioned as if it just occurred to two of the trustees at this meeting, when it was in fact one of Cal's first recommendations: get an engineer, someone whose job is to study situations and recommend solutions.]
John Vechery: In the late '70's these basements (Township Hall and Civic Center) were dug out. We had 12 CETA workers. As you go down the stairs, the first window on the left, that basement was already there. As they dug down, the sandstone fell in, so the sandstone does not go down very deep. I don't know if they corrected that.
John Festa: To Marie--You gave me the hall rental fees and I have all the return receipts. I noticed that in addition to the rentals there was a security deposit which would be returned. I do not see any receipts for security deposits.
Sue Skrovan: (Sue handles the rental fees for the Civic Center and also cleans that building after it has been used.) The custodian receives it two weeks before. I keep every receipt for every deposit.
John Festa seemed to have trouble understanding Sue's explanation, because there was a lot of back and forth about this. He finally asked for them--the records or receipts.
Jason: I understand that you hold these and then give them back. (The security deposits.)
Sue: The check is voided and returned unless there is an issue and if money has to be held. If it is a cleaning issue, I hold the money. If it is damage, Marie holds it. Rarely is the whole amount of money held.
John Festa asked how this is done and Sue explained it. He also said that he wanted to move to have an executive session after public comment to discuss promotion and also discipline.
[Blogger: These matters are discussed in executive session; those details are supposed to stay strictly confidential. The decisions must be made a matter of public record, however. Those can be found in the minutes.]
[Blogger: What remains of this meeting is public comment, which was lengthy. It will have to wait for the next post, which I intend to do as soon as possible, but not any more today.]
This is the definition that was given: The brand is the cumulative results of all interactions (tangible and intangible) that the target audience members have with or about any aspect of your organization.
These days, the first contact that people probably have with a community or organization is a website. Those sites are the first impression a virtual visitor gets, and you only get one chance to make a first impression. That impression may encourage viewers or leave a bad taste in their mouths.
During discussion, one of the workshop attendees commented on the tone of Port Clinton's website--that it seemed a little apologetic. Fixing that seems relatively easy.
If sites are similarly titled, the one that gets the most hits is the one that comes up first. What if the first thing you saw on the front page of the Record Courier was "Sound Off!"? One of the nastier examples of "Sound Off!", that is.
The workshop was interesting but struck me as more relevant to urban areas. However, the concepts gave lots of food for thought. One more thing: The brand identity is defined by the audience, not by the entity that is trying to create the identity, because so much of brand identity comes from the experience of the audience.
OK for that. Now, to the topic at hand, stated above.
Painting the Town Hall
After a quick summary of what had been done on Remington Point, Linda Ehlert had the floor to report on issues having to do with painting the Town Hall.
Linda: After our last meeting I e-mailed the Ohio Historic Preservation Office and have given [that information] to you. [Blogger: Printed out, it is about 16 pages worth in one item and several more in the less detailed, less technical one.]
The problem we have with the building is common to old buildings. The thing that was very interesting and that I wanted to talk about is because some of this information is so important.
If latex paint is applied over chalking or peeling, the latex will not adhere.
The information tells not to power wash or blast the wood with anything when cleaning. The washing forces water into the wood and blasting damages the wood.
It takes a whole year after one of these procedures for a building to dry. This absolutely causes water problems and bad adhesion for the paint.
Also, you have to use oil paint, alkyd primer and paint after sanding because latex will not adhere without a primer.
Linda pointed out a picture in the information packet illustrating why paint must be feathered by sanding, rather than just being scraped, with a sharp edge left between paint and wood. Sanding must be by hand and not by machine.
There was also some good information on reparing rotted wood and wet basements. They asked us if we wanted to take pictures--they could tell us what is wrong.
They asked if we had a plan and indicated that ventilation was probably a problem. [Blogger: It seems to me that "ventilation" sounds a teensy bit familiar--as in having been mentioned by almost everyone but John Festa--since the topic of painting the hall was introduced months ago. He may finally have mentioned ventilation at the last meeting or so.]
Linda: We were upstairs getting ready for the potato festival and talked about cellulose and they said there was no cellulose and no insulation up there. [Blogger: I don't know who "they" may be, here. Someone who has been around for a long time and is familiar with the building, I assume.]
Linda: The person in Columbus said that if we sent photos and a plan of what we wanted to do, they would send us suggestions.
They suggested that if we are not sure, to get an engineer rather than contractors, because opinions will differ and the engineer will know what to do. [Cal Brant said this almost two months ago and was not merely ignored, but cut off, if I remember correctly.]
Linda: If you put vinyl siding on, that is the last thing they want anyone to do and it would result in the building being removed from the National Register of Historic Places.
Old buildings take special care to get to last, but the preparation is crucial. [Blogger: Again, Cal said this early on--and was ignored.]
[Blogger: I believe that Linda also mentioned that masonry should not be power washed, either. That advice is in the same packet of information, which I had read before the meeting and may therefore not have taken down in my notes from Linda's remarks.]
Linda, continuing: I also checked a little about grants, but the funding is not available until next April. There is now a tax check-off for historic preservation. I can look next week when this grant possibility goes on line. Buildings on the National Register of Historic Places get preference. Up to $20,000 is available. We may not want or be able to wait that long. This concluded Linda's presentation.
John Festa reported on meeting with Jim Kotkowski about the drainage around the building. [Blogger: Since I was not at that meeting, this post will contain only what John Festa said on his own behalf about the situation.] He said that upon looking at the building, "we seen " that there were all kinds of things very close to the foundations like gas lines and plantings that would have to be removed to do any digging. He commented that it got bigger every time he looked at it. He said that he had called John Frost [mentioned in an earlier post], but he is tied up and will call back as soon as possible
John Festa, continuing: I looked at the foundation in the basement and it looks as if the foundation is set about three feet deep. The sandstone needs to be power washed [Blogger: see the remarks above about power washing brick; sandstone is similarly porous] and pointed and other work done.
Vic: I think the first thing is to clean the gutters. The only time I have seen water in the basement is after a really heavy rain. We need to maike sure that the downspout is open because if that is plugged, then there is a water problem.
Then, commenting on the digging idea: This is definitely a major works project. Vic also said something about getting a true professional in to look at it and make a recommendation, but he trailed off on that.
Then:
Vic: We don't know how much weight of the building is sitting on the stone and we do not want to move the dirt away because the wall might fall down. The only time there is obvious water is when the downspout overflows. I would be skeptical of digging beside the stone. A curtain drain would eliminate some worry.
John Festa: I don't think that will solve the problem but I am not an expert.
Jason asked how to seal the stone.
Vic: You can point it and put insulating rope into it, but I do not know what will stick to sandstone. The only thing that will grow and stick to sandstone is mold. I don't know whether pointing would stay or whether it would crack again.
I think the first thing is to clean the downspouts.
John Festa: Do we know anyone who can do that? [!!!! This, from the person who wants "our guys" to do everything.]
Cal Brant: If you get a good person to clean them out, there is something called Leaf Guard that will help. There is a way to deal with the sandstone. Cal described that, a detailed process that involves a gravel layer, a coating, and a membrane in conjunction with 2" thick rigid insulation, plus a procedure called "pargeing." The dirt is then replaced and compacted to protect against frost against the wall.
Cal: It is very doable and there are volunteers in the township, and we could do a wall at a time.
Jason: We need to get some experts. [Blogger: I have heard the phrase "Ready, fire, aim," and have even considered how it applies to myself. In small ways, it is almost comical. In this situation, it seems to me that after having been raised in April or May, finally the problem is being addressed thoughtfully--and the idea of experts is being mentioned as if it just occurred to two of the trustees at this meeting, when it was in fact one of Cal's first recommendations: get an engineer, someone whose job is to study situations and recommend solutions.]
John Vechery: In the late '70's these basements (Township Hall and Civic Center) were dug out. We had 12 CETA workers. As you go down the stairs, the first window on the left, that basement was already there. As they dug down, the sandstone fell in, so the sandstone does not go down very deep. I don't know if they corrected that.
John Festa: To Marie--You gave me the hall rental fees and I have all the return receipts. I noticed that in addition to the rentals there was a security deposit which would be returned. I do not see any receipts for security deposits.
Sue Skrovan: (Sue handles the rental fees for the Civic Center and also cleans that building after it has been used.) The custodian receives it two weeks before. I keep every receipt for every deposit.
John Festa seemed to have trouble understanding Sue's explanation, because there was a lot of back and forth about this. He finally asked for them--the records or receipts.
Jason: I understand that you hold these and then give them back. (The security deposits.)
Sue: The check is voided and returned unless there is an issue and if money has to be held. If it is a cleaning issue, I hold the money. If it is damage, Marie holds it. Rarely is the whole amount of money held.
John Festa asked how this is done and Sue explained it. He also said that he wanted to move to have an executive session after public comment to discuss promotion and also discipline.
[Blogger: These matters are discussed in executive session; those details are supposed to stay strictly confidential. The decisions must be made a matter of public record, however. Those can be found in the minutes.]
[Blogger: What remains of this meeting is public comment, which was lengthy. It will have to wait for the next post, which I intend to do as soon as possible, but not any more today.]
Friday, September 14, 2012
Mantua Township Trustees, 9-5-12
Following the information covered in the previous post, Zoning, club, and committee reports --mostly nothing to report--were given.
At 8:07, new business began with a discussion of whether to stripe Bowen Road, which had been chip and sealed, because the school is located on that road and the striping is a safety consideration. There was mild debate about whether to stripe completely or just the center line, and Vic pointed out that even on paved roads, striping begins to fade after about 10 months because all paint now must be water soluble.
The consensus was that Bowen should be striped. Jason made a motion to that effect, which passed. Cost: $2797 (approximately)
There was also discussion and a motion to have C.J. Seal Coating seal and paint the handicapped area at the civic center, cost $300.
Jason commented on an e-mail from the County about the seismic testing trucks (part of oil and gas exploration) that are working in the area. Questions should be directed to the county.
Dave Pollard explained that the trucks have vibratory mechanisms underneath that create a rumble like distant thunder. They send echoes through the soil and pick up the shock waves. It should not shake your house or rattle dishes off the wall. This same thing was done years ago on the first oil drilling in the area.
John Festa commented on noticing a hydraulic fluid leak on one of the trucks when he was at the job site on Pioneer Trail and thought it might be on the same truck that had a bed that needed work.
Then he commented on the ongoing issue of the negotiations with Freight Liner in Youngstown about a part that they had agreed to pay for/credit the Township for. Instead of sending the check that John Festa had requested, he reported that the company was applying it as a credit. He asked if Vic could perhaps bring him up to speed. Vic explained that the salesman had come to Vic's shop with the check, but there was a person talking with Vic and two waiting. Eventually the salesman decided not to wait longer, left, and the company gave the Township a credit for $700.
John Festa: I am not going to accept that because the Trustees and the company agreed that we would get a check, not a credit. He thought he would just turn the matter over to Chris Meduri, the Assistant Prosecutor. Finally, after some discussion, there was a motion to send a letter requesting a check, as in the original agreement.
John Festa mentioned the truck--that it was leaking quite a bit.
Jason: So you are thinking about applying the check to this repair? Answer: Yes.
John Festa thought that a $100 part could be charged as a $700 item.
Then he raised a question about the Township website--that it had not been upgraded and asked Brent Simon (webmaster for the Township site) if there were anything he (JF) could do.
Brent: It is ready to go and just needs content. I should not be writing content for the Township.
Jason allowed as how JF could probably do something on that. Doing the content is just time consuming.
John Festa: If I could get a policy, that would be a help.
He was also concerned about an auto response that people are getting.
[Blogger: This is an auto response that Marie has for e-mail, indicating that she is waiting for the trustees to get an office set up in the school building to begin using the website/township e-mail.]
Marie: I talked about it with Chris Meduri, who said it would be OK to do.
John Festa: I never liked them and think something else would be better--even no reponse.
[Blogger's note: Of the four people who sit at the front table, Marie is the best educated, the best credentialed, and the most experienced. She is an elected official, not an employee of the trustees. The tone when she is addressed, as above, is not that of someone to an equal.]
Vic mentioned having given out information about radios a couple of meetings ago. [This is for emeregency communications, I believe, so that in the event of an emergency or disaster, all agencies could communicate with each other.] After discussion, a motion was made to purchase two radios and pay for the license, which is good for 10 years. Vic asked for $1500 for the radios and $150 for the license. Passed.
Vic: Linda Ehlert dropped off a bunch of information about painting from the Ohio Preservation Office. It is very interesting and I have not had a chance to go through it yet. She has given us a lot of information about how this applies to our building [the Township Hall].
[Blogger: The information prints out to about 16 pages, including documentation of authoritative sources.]
Vic, continuing: There was an inquiry about renting the gym for girls' soft pitch baseball practice. They asked if the Township would sponsor them and then also about a monthly rental or even 6 month period. They would want to mount a batting cage and probably to do that we would need to remove some fund raisers. They are looking for a monthly charge and would tie up the whole building.
But we are having voting in there. They want to know immediately.
Jason: Voting would be a concern. I guess if the price is right . . . . But I do not have the rental rates in front of me.
Vic: We would need to figure electricity and other costrs. They are looking at someplace in Aurora and another in Garrettsville. We would need lighting.
John Festa: I am concerned about hitting balls all over and the pipe wrapping [Blogger: which is fiberglass, not asbestos]. Also, wear and tear on the building.
Jason: Maybe we could figure out what it would cost and maybe it would be a. . . .
Linda Ehlert asked to be recognized and said, "As a retired insurance agent, you might want to check with your agent, because that could change your liability."
New business ended here, and so will this blog post.
At 8:07, new business began with a discussion of whether to stripe Bowen Road, which had been chip and sealed, because the school is located on that road and the striping is a safety consideration. There was mild debate about whether to stripe completely or just the center line, and Vic pointed out that even on paved roads, striping begins to fade after about 10 months because all paint now must be water soluble.
The consensus was that Bowen should be striped. Jason made a motion to that effect, which passed. Cost: $2797 (approximately)
There was also discussion and a motion to have C.J. Seal Coating seal and paint the handicapped area at the civic center, cost $300.
Jason commented on an e-mail from the County about the seismic testing trucks (part of oil and gas exploration) that are working in the area. Questions should be directed to the county.
Dave Pollard explained that the trucks have vibratory mechanisms underneath that create a rumble like distant thunder. They send echoes through the soil and pick up the shock waves. It should not shake your house or rattle dishes off the wall. This same thing was done years ago on the first oil drilling in the area.
John Festa commented on noticing a hydraulic fluid leak on one of the trucks when he was at the job site on Pioneer Trail and thought it might be on the same truck that had a bed that needed work.
Then he commented on the ongoing issue of the negotiations with Freight Liner in Youngstown about a part that they had agreed to pay for/credit the Township for. Instead of sending the check that John Festa had requested, he reported that the company was applying it as a credit. He asked if Vic could perhaps bring him up to speed. Vic explained that the salesman had come to Vic's shop with the check, but there was a person talking with Vic and two waiting. Eventually the salesman decided not to wait longer, left, and the company gave the Township a credit for $700.
John Festa: I am not going to accept that because the Trustees and the company agreed that we would get a check, not a credit. He thought he would just turn the matter over to Chris Meduri, the Assistant Prosecutor. Finally, after some discussion, there was a motion to send a letter requesting a check, as in the original agreement.
John Festa mentioned the truck--that it was leaking quite a bit.
Jason: So you are thinking about applying the check to this repair? Answer: Yes.
John Festa thought that a $100 part could be charged as a $700 item.
Then he raised a question about the Township website--that it had not been upgraded and asked Brent Simon (webmaster for the Township site) if there were anything he (JF) could do.
Brent: It is ready to go and just needs content. I should not be writing content for the Township.
Jason allowed as how JF could probably do something on that. Doing the content is just time consuming.
John Festa: If I could get a policy, that would be a help.
He was also concerned about an auto response that people are getting.
[Blogger: This is an auto response that Marie has for e-mail, indicating that she is waiting for the trustees to get an office set up in the school building to begin using the website/township e-mail.]
Marie: I talked about it with Chris Meduri, who said it would be OK to do.
John Festa: I never liked them and think something else would be better--even no reponse.
[Blogger's note: Of the four people who sit at the front table, Marie is the best educated, the best credentialed, and the most experienced. She is an elected official, not an employee of the trustees. The tone when she is addressed, as above, is not that of someone to an equal.]
Vic mentioned having given out information about radios a couple of meetings ago. [This is for emeregency communications, I believe, so that in the event of an emergency or disaster, all agencies could communicate with each other.] After discussion, a motion was made to purchase two radios and pay for the license, which is good for 10 years. Vic asked for $1500 for the radios and $150 for the license. Passed.
Vic: Linda Ehlert dropped off a bunch of information about painting from the Ohio Preservation Office. It is very interesting and I have not had a chance to go through it yet. She has given us a lot of information about how this applies to our building [the Township Hall].
[Blogger: The information prints out to about 16 pages, including documentation of authoritative sources.]
Vic, continuing: There was an inquiry about renting the gym for girls' soft pitch baseball practice. They asked if the Township would sponsor them and then also about a monthly rental or even 6 month period. They would want to mount a batting cage and probably to do that we would need to remove some fund raisers. They are looking for a monthly charge and would tie up the whole building.
But we are having voting in there. They want to know immediately.
Jason: Voting would be a concern. I guess if the price is right . . . . But I do not have the rental rates in front of me.
Vic: We would need to figure electricity and other costrs. They are looking at someplace in Aurora and another in Garrettsville. We would need lighting.
John Festa: I am concerned about hitting balls all over and the pipe wrapping [Blogger: which is fiberglass, not asbestos]. Also, wear and tear on the building.
Jason: Maybe we could figure out what it would cost and maybe it would be a. . . .
Linda Ehlert asked to be recognized and said, "As a retired insurance agent, you might want to check with your agent, because that could change your liability."
New business ended here, and so will this blog post.
Thursday, September 13, 2012
Mantua Township Trustees, 9-5-12
Blogger's Foreword: This has been a really busy week; in the interests of not spending too much more of it just doing the blog, I am going to hit mostly what I consider the highlights. As usual, the official record of the meeting is the minutes. Mantua Township's official website is mantuatownship.gov.
After the usual preliminaries with minutes of previous meetings, announcements, and the fiscal officer's report, Marie made a presentation.
Marie: One other thing: in April I gave you a letter requesting an office and you requested a plan. In June I gave you a floor plan and we had a meeting.
Tonight I have a floor plan laid out with furnishings.
Marie then put up a floor plan for the whole first floor of the school. She is most interested in getting her office in, but she laid out the whole floor because some of her plan deals with the whole first floor.
The floor plan for the room also includes phone and internet.
Marie, continuing: I have developed costs for the rooms. For my room alone, it should take just over $4,000 and that includes the furniture. The whole first floor would be $12,500 to $25,000, depending on which option the trustees choose. [Note: The first option showed the fiscal officer's room on the west side, the zoning functions on the east, and trustees use in the north room.]
The second plan Marie presented showed the north room for community use with the zoning use on the east end of the building. This plan showed a single small office for use for any trustee to use to have a conference with a resident.
The costs do not include lead based paint removal, but I have been told that this would cost no more than $500.
Continuing: I have a schedule that would get us into that room by October 1 this year. I am asking for a blanket purchase order for $5,000 but expect to get it done for less. The money is set aside in the budget. I am requesting approval. I have a floor plan and costs.
Jason: While you are talking about that, Marie, I have an extensive list of all the repairs and work to be done for the walls, baseboards, and trim and all flooring, carpet, tile, etc.
I can not estimate cost on this but it is an extensive list of things that need to be done. Putting in a wall partition and boxing around chalkboards or removing them--we need to get something like this bid out so we know exactly what we have.
Marie: I believe we have volunteer labor and a carpet person who said that the old glue can be cleaned off.
Jason: The recommendation I got was to put a thin layer of padding under that [carpet] and it would cover all of the inconsistencies [of the original wooden floor]. I think we need to bid it out so we can have one supervisor over all of the volunteers so we have only one person to report to. I was told we can use a leveling course in the hallway and then put down PVC tile.
It is not that we have not been moving, but it is a lot of work to spec this out. The lighting needs to be replaced.
Marie: Would this have to be done before we can move in?
Jason: Why would we piecemeal it like that? He then asked for comments from the other trustees.
Vic: The lighting can be done one room at a time. There is a lot of volunteer work that can be done. One gentleman had no problem doing it room by room. I would like to see something begin happening so we can get use of the building before it gets into winter.
To Marie: Did you have lighting figured into that? Answer: No.
Vic: With the lighting, it would take that $5,000.
John Festa: My opinion has not changed--until we can get an environmental study, I do not want to get any volunteers in there. For me to move forward, I need some assurances that the building is clean.
Marie: So the environmental study should be done first. By whom?
John Festa: I don't know.
Vic: We have two people, but I do not have their names tonight.
Jason to John Festa: What do you have in mind?
John Festa: Lead paint and asbestos. Our policy mentions it on every page. I would like to interview a couple of people and it should not take more than a couple of weeks [!!!] to do.
He inquired about the company from Mentor and thought that would be a good place to begin.
[Blogger: This is the company Vic has talked with and had a representative of look at the school. At that time, how to go about the work was, if I understood correctly, pretty straightforward and could be started any time. Vic's earlier comments and reports were ignored, but now, months or at least many weeks later, this company might be one to contact.. For at least a year--or if it wasn't a year, it certainly seemed like it--the drumbeat of lead based paint and asbestos came from the southwest corner of the room. A lot of us thought that the whole issue had been laid to rest with a report Vic gave on his discussions with people in the business, including the Mentor firm. Apparently, the location of those objections has simply moved from the corner to the trustees' table. Or to one chair at the table.]
Marie: Can I go ahead and put aside the money so we can begin?
John Festa: We can wait two weeks. [Blogger: Remember, before the election the whole hue and cry was that there had been too much delay. Apparently this is not delay. Right.]
Jason: What is the balance in repairs and maintenance?
Marie: The money you are thinking about is in the sites fund and the school fund. One fund (repairs and maintenance) had $3100. The other had $15,784. Marie thought that would do the entire first floor.
Jason: My thought is that we can easily get a list together and put it out to prospective contractors.
He then gave Marie a letter from Terry Asphalt introducing the company to the trustees. Jason thought it could be included in the correspondence for the next meeting.
[Blogger: In light of the immediately preceding post, this is a good place to stop. Can you spell "stall," or "delay," boys and girls?]
After the usual preliminaries with minutes of previous meetings, announcements, and the fiscal officer's report, Marie made a presentation.
Marie: One other thing: in April I gave you a letter requesting an office and you requested a plan. In June I gave you a floor plan and we had a meeting.
Tonight I have a floor plan laid out with furnishings.
Marie then put up a floor plan for the whole first floor of the school. She is most interested in getting her office in, but she laid out the whole floor because some of her plan deals with the whole first floor.
The floor plan for the room also includes phone and internet.
Marie, continuing: I have developed costs for the rooms. For my room alone, it should take just over $4,000 and that includes the furniture. The whole first floor would be $12,500 to $25,000, depending on which option the trustees choose. [Note: The first option showed the fiscal officer's room on the west side, the zoning functions on the east, and trustees use in the north room.]
The second plan Marie presented showed the north room for community use with the zoning use on the east end of the building. This plan showed a single small office for use for any trustee to use to have a conference with a resident.
The costs do not include lead based paint removal, but I have been told that this would cost no more than $500.
Continuing: I have a schedule that would get us into that room by October 1 this year. I am asking for a blanket purchase order for $5,000 but expect to get it done for less. The money is set aside in the budget. I am requesting approval. I have a floor plan and costs.
Jason: While you are talking about that, Marie, I have an extensive list of all the repairs and work to be done for the walls, baseboards, and trim and all flooring, carpet, tile, etc.
I can not estimate cost on this but it is an extensive list of things that need to be done. Putting in a wall partition and boxing around chalkboards or removing them--we need to get something like this bid out so we know exactly what we have.
Marie: I believe we have volunteer labor and a carpet person who said that the old glue can be cleaned off.
Jason: The recommendation I got was to put a thin layer of padding under that [carpet] and it would cover all of the inconsistencies [of the original wooden floor]. I think we need to bid it out so we can have one supervisor over all of the volunteers so we have only one person to report to. I was told we can use a leveling course in the hallway and then put down PVC tile.
It is not that we have not been moving, but it is a lot of work to spec this out. The lighting needs to be replaced.
Marie: Would this have to be done before we can move in?
Jason: Why would we piecemeal it like that? He then asked for comments from the other trustees.
Vic: The lighting can be done one room at a time. There is a lot of volunteer work that can be done. One gentleman had no problem doing it room by room. I would like to see something begin happening so we can get use of the building before it gets into winter.
To Marie: Did you have lighting figured into that? Answer: No.
Vic: With the lighting, it would take that $5,000.
John Festa: My opinion has not changed--until we can get an environmental study, I do not want to get any volunteers in there. For me to move forward, I need some assurances that the building is clean.
Marie: So the environmental study should be done first. By whom?
John Festa: I don't know.
Vic: We have two people, but I do not have their names tonight.
Jason to John Festa: What do you have in mind?
John Festa: Lead paint and asbestos. Our policy mentions it on every page. I would like to interview a couple of people and it should not take more than a couple of weeks [!!!] to do.
He inquired about the company from Mentor and thought that would be a good place to begin.
[Blogger: This is the company Vic has talked with and had a representative of look at the school. At that time, how to go about the work was, if I understood correctly, pretty straightforward and could be started any time. Vic's earlier comments and reports were ignored, but now, months or at least many weeks later, this company might be one to contact.. For at least a year--or if it wasn't a year, it certainly seemed like it--the drumbeat of lead based paint and asbestos came from the southwest corner of the room. A lot of us thought that the whole issue had been laid to rest with a report Vic gave on his discussions with people in the business, including the Mentor firm. Apparently, the location of those objections has simply moved from the corner to the trustees' table. Or to one chair at the table.]
Marie: Can I go ahead and put aside the money so we can begin?
John Festa: We can wait two weeks. [Blogger: Remember, before the election the whole hue and cry was that there had been too much delay. Apparently this is not delay. Right.]
Jason: What is the balance in repairs and maintenance?
Marie: The money you are thinking about is in the sites fund and the school fund. One fund (repairs and maintenance) had $3100. The other had $15,784. Marie thought that would do the entire first floor.
Jason: My thought is that we can easily get a list together and put it out to prospective contractors.
He then gave Marie a letter from Terry Asphalt introducing the company to the trustees. Jason thought it could be included in the correspondence for the next meeting.
[Blogger: In light of the immediately preceding post, this is a good place to stop. Can you spell "stall," or "delay," boys and girls?]
Wednesday, September 12, 2012
The School--A Fair Question
One of the people on the blog contact list passed this question on to me, and I decided that it was worth putting out there, along with my response.
Here's the whole thing:
To me: Can I ask just one question here? This building is owned by Mantua Township and the trustees when they bought it took on the responsibility for maintaining it. Why is anyone else's money being used for something for which they are obligated. I don't know how to answer that question as it was proposed to me.
In response: Well, it's a fair question.
Part of what we are doing is working to publicize and crystallize the feelings of what Lynn Harvey calls "the silent majority": that the school is a treasure worth saving. Unless we start that before there is a clear threat, we will be left at the starting gate. The building cannot be sold while money is still owed on it, but it will be paid off (I believe) next year. It was purchased in 2004, with a ten-year payoff schedule.
I believe that it can then be sold by a motion, a second, and a vote. One of the trustees was sponsored by someone who is loudly hostile to the school and also to Vic and, before the election, to Mark--two honest, conscientious people who could not be intimidated or bullied into making unethical decisions or decisions favoring individual, personal interests. That is not mere opinion, but observation. I attended meeting after meeting in which those two men were brutally hounded, much of it about the school.
The other trustee came into office saying that he would work to get us into the old school building but then changed within a few months and said that if the price was right, he would vote to sell it. Subsequently, as support for the building has become more apparent, he has made statements that seem more favorable to keeping and using the building. Those who have been at most of the meetings and who support the school are hopeful but skeptical.
People only give money to causes they believe in, so the money that The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., is working to raise is a better gauge of attitudes than just high-sounding sentiment.
Furthermore, we are not doing anything new. The original Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., was chartered in 1977 for the stated purpose of renovating the Grange Hall and the Civic Center. The members systematically raised something like $30,000 for the project. The difference between then and now is that the original group had the cooperation--to the tune of some matching funds--of the trustees at the time. The work was done completely with volunteers, if I am correct.
Those people--both residents and trustees--had a clear sense of the value of the buildings to the community. Josephine Leitzow was the treasurer, and Pat Magyarics and Eric Hummel were in that group as well. They may have been board members, in fact. John Vechery and Roger Hurd were among the people who worked on the actual renovations. John supervised a CETA group of reprobates who put a foundation under the Grange Hall (now the Township Hall.) I think the group Roger worked with built the stage in the Civic Center, but I am not quite sure about that. I do know that when one of the present critics put forth the notion of ripping out the stage in the Civic Center and building offices in that area, Roger was the person who knew how everything was constructed and said specifically why that idea was a really bad one. (He made those remarks at the special meeting on May 31 to problem solve about the school; something like a transcript of that is in an earlier blog post, if you want to check.)
So there is a precedent for our raising money to do work on a building that the trustees own. In theory, they own it in trust (after all, "trustee" means "one who is trusted") for all of us, for the good of the township and its residents. Raising money for the school building is a way of taking care of ourselves and what is important to us rather than expecting someone else to take care of us.
The present State of Ohio administration has cut funding to local governments, and those cuts will continue. I am not quite sure what the purpose is for doing that, other than to create a reputation among the populace of fiscal responsibility on the part of the governor. Whoever controls the purse controls. Period. So what the agenda is I don't know, except that it could force townships and other small governments into regional entities instead of individual ones--and townships would still come last. That is my opinion, or maybe my fear. There is one person I can ask about all of that if I can get a response from him. Well, maybe two. Janet Esposito should have some idea of what's going on. [Blogger's note: I have not done that yet. If and when I manage the time for it, I will put it into the blog also.]
So we are having to do more with less, and roads always need attention (and money--paving is expensive.) But roads are visible to everyone and have all kinds of public relations value--look at how our new trustees are taking care of us. Of course in three to five years the roads will be deteriorating again because that is the nature of the beast. And never mind what is being done to the township's carefully built, solid fiscal base. If the money is all spent on the roads, the school goes begging.
There is money in an account to use for the school--enough to do at least two of the large rooms on the first floor, and those rooms could accommodate both the fiscal officer's operations and those of Zoning.
The Township does not own large parks or have a police department. It owns buildings, two of which--the Township Hall and the Civic Center--are already on the National Register of Historic Places. The third, the school, as many to most people in the Township know, is in the process of nomination to the National Register of Historic Places. Someone at the Potato Festival over the weekend described once driving all over New England on a vacation, looking for the perfect New England green--and found it upon coming home to Mantua Center.
That is all worth something, and if the trustees say that the school can't be worked on because there is no more money, we can say "au contraire. Here is the money. We value this place and these buildings. We want these buildings--all three of them."
So we are working to raise the money, and we are raising money. And awareness, apparently.
Here's the whole thing:
To me: Can I ask just one question here? This building is owned by Mantua Township and the trustees when they bought it took on the responsibility for maintaining it. Why is anyone else's money being used for something for which they are obligated. I don't know how to answer that question as it was proposed to me.
In response: Well, it's a fair question.
Part of what we are doing is working to publicize and crystallize the feelings of what Lynn Harvey calls "the silent majority": that the school is a treasure worth saving. Unless we start that before there is a clear threat, we will be left at the starting gate. The building cannot be sold while money is still owed on it, but it will be paid off (I believe) next year. It was purchased in 2004, with a ten-year payoff schedule.
I believe that it can then be sold by a motion, a second, and a vote. One of the trustees was sponsored by someone who is loudly hostile to the school and also to Vic and, before the election, to Mark--two honest, conscientious people who could not be intimidated or bullied into making unethical decisions or decisions favoring individual, personal interests. That is not mere opinion, but observation. I attended meeting after meeting in which those two men were brutally hounded, much of it about the school.
The other trustee came into office saying that he would work to get us into the old school building but then changed within a few months and said that if the price was right, he would vote to sell it. Subsequently, as support for the building has become more apparent, he has made statements that seem more favorable to keeping and using the building. Those who have been at most of the meetings and who support the school are hopeful but skeptical.
People only give money to causes they believe in, so the money that The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., is working to raise is a better gauge of attitudes than just high-sounding sentiment.
Furthermore, we are not doing anything new. The original Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., was chartered in 1977 for the stated purpose of renovating the Grange Hall and the Civic Center. The members systematically raised something like $30,000 for the project. The difference between then and now is that the original group had the cooperation--to the tune of some matching funds--of the trustees at the time. The work was done completely with volunteers, if I am correct.
Those people--both residents and trustees--had a clear sense of the value of the buildings to the community. Josephine Leitzow was the treasurer, and Pat Magyarics and Eric Hummel were in that group as well. They may have been board members, in fact. John Vechery and Roger Hurd were among the people who worked on the actual renovations. John supervised a CETA group of reprobates who put a foundation under the Grange Hall (now the Township Hall.) I think the group Roger worked with built the stage in the Civic Center, but I am not quite sure about that. I do know that when one of the present critics put forth the notion of ripping out the stage in the Civic Center and building offices in that area, Roger was the person who knew how everything was constructed and said specifically why that idea was a really bad one. (He made those remarks at the special meeting on May 31 to problem solve about the school; something like a transcript of that is in an earlier blog post, if you want to check.)
So there is a precedent for our raising money to do work on a building that the trustees own. In theory, they own it in trust (after all, "trustee" means "one who is trusted") for all of us, for the good of the township and its residents. Raising money for the school building is a way of taking care of ourselves and what is important to us rather than expecting someone else to take care of us.
The present State of Ohio administration has cut funding to local governments, and those cuts will continue. I am not quite sure what the purpose is for doing that, other than to create a reputation among the populace of fiscal responsibility on the part of the governor. Whoever controls the purse controls. Period. So what the agenda is I don't know, except that it could force townships and other small governments into regional entities instead of individual ones--and townships would still come last. That is my opinion, or maybe my fear. There is one person I can ask about all of that if I can get a response from him. Well, maybe two. Janet Esposito should have some idea of what's going on. [Blogger's note: I have not done that yet. If and when I manage the time for it, I will put it into the blog also.]
So we are having to do more with less, and roads always need attention (and money--paving is expensive.) But roads are visible to everyone and have all kinds of public relations value--look at how our new trustees are taking care of us. Of course in three to five years the roads will be deteriorating again because that is the nature of the beast. And never mind what is being done to the township's carefully built, solid fiscal base. If the money is all spent on the roads, the school goes begging.
There is money in an account to use for the school--enough to do at least two of the large rooms on the first floor, and those rooms could accommodate both the fiscal officer's operations and those of Zoning.
The Township does not own large parks or have a police department. It owns buildings, two of which--the Township Hall and the Civic Center--are already on the National Register of Historic Places. The third, the school, as many to most people in the Township know, is in the process of nomination to the National Register of Historic Places. Someone at the Potato Festival over the weekend described once driving all over New England on a vacation, looking for the perfect New England green--and found it upon coming home to Mantua Center.
That is all worth something, and if the trustees say that the school can't be worked on because there is no more money, we can say "au contraire. Here is the money. We value this place and these buildings. We want these buildings--all three of them."
So we are working to raise the money, and we are raising money. And awareness, apparently.
Monday, September 3, 2012
Painting Twp. Hall discussion, second part
John Festa asked Dan Cozzens his opinion on what had gone before.
Dan: I agree with everything Frank said except for venting the side walls. I think you should pull a couple of pieces of siding to see what is in there. The normal construction should be cross-braced throughout. In the old buildings, you don't vent the side walls.
I would put in power vents and then vents in the roof.
You can look--you can see where all the water could be running in. There are huge cracks, and you can smell how musty it is--it is coming in from the ground.
Vic: The humidity down there is terrific. The humidity in the basement in July was 68% and 70% and the temperature was 70 degrees.
Frank Horack: The power vent is my last choice.
Vic: One of the reasons we did not put vents into the roof is because of the historical character.
Frank: You keep the historical character as much as you can. You have a bad moisture problem which is not cheap to fix. The painting is just cosmetic and will deteriorate again in 2-3 years. Whoever poured the pad put the cement up against the wood and the wood is rotting. On new construction, the Portage County Building Code is [to have] 8" bewtween concrete and wood. Originally there was no basement, but just a crawl space.
Frank, continuing: I think you should get an independent person in who works on historic buildings or an architect who does this kind of thing.
John Festa: I have [?] a gentleman on a job site about 3 weeks ago, and he is in the renovation business doing the church in Aurora now. When I told him I was from the Township he told me that his name is John Frost, and he was one of the original Frosts. John said that he asked if Mr. Frost would look at the buildings as a courtesy. He may give us a favorable rate to look. I have not called him yet, but that is one avenue we could go down.
Vic: That is what Cal Brant mentioned--get an engineering firm. The one painter I talked with did not want to do the job and told us what our problems were and recommended not using one type of paint [that had been under discussion--Blogger]. It sticks too well and the water gets under it and then blisters it.
Frank Horack: The wall is bowed out because of the moisture. They do not make a paint good enough to stop the blistering. Painting will not stop the moisture but will just contain it in the building.
The big question is the money to fix it. When you restore any building, it is a lot more expensive than for new.
Jason asked if there were any other comments.
Phil Derthick: If my memory serves me, the same guy painted both buildings [the Township Hall and the Civic Center]. The Civic Center paint today is still on it. I think the paint today is better than what we had. I can warn you that if you begin to power wash this building--what were they going to do power washing -- were they going to get all the paint off?
John Festa: No.
Phil: The next time, would the edges of the [old] paint roll up and need to be scraped? I don't think you remember what the window sills and boards looked like before we started to paint. It was all badly deteriorated. If you power wash too hard, you will pull off what we put on. Phil also described the kind of repair that had been done to some of the boards--caulk and anothyer layer. Has anyone pulled the plugs out of the side of t he building?
John Festa: No.
Phil: If we pulled them, can we tell what kind of insulation is t here? Why not do that and see what is going on and then replace it with a bigger plug? I think one recommendation was to put stain over it to protect the wood and get you through until the problem can be fixed. Over time, the paint will come off. Someone Phil worked with suggested letting time peel the paint before applying new.
Jason: We can try to tackle some of this but we need a game plan.
Larry Leitzow: There is no sense in painting it until it has been fixed. Are there grants available? People are here from the historical society--they ought to know how to do this. If it needs to be re-lapped, how much would that cost? Removing the siding will probably damage it. [Blogger: It depends on who removes it, and with what tools.]
Larry Houck: The work being done in Aurora seems to be getting done right. You might want to talk to them. [Blogger: Just a reminder: Aurora is a city and has an income tax. Between that and the probable per capita income there, money is more readily available to do things.]
Frank Horack asked about the energy grant that was used for the school: Is there anything else or new?
Vic: We have not heard about any new money. Vic reviewed how those grants worked. It would take time to research what is out there.
Linda Ehlert: The Ohio Historic Preservation Office--like everything else, with the economy, they are not taking applications through 2012. In doing some calls about painting and other issues, I talked with someone in the area. There is a program that has recently given Streetsboro $45,000 to repair their school. I can try to contact that gentleman and see if they would do anything for old buildings. I think the problem sometimes is that because it is a township building, that is a problem.
When I talked to them about a amsll amount, I was told t hat they had programs for community projects that would provide larger amounts. I could contact him and see about whether they could do this.
Jason: We are talking significant dollars. This is a tough issue with appearance, but the real issue is the moisture. It does not seem to be just one problem. It is very expensive.
We have $14,000--$15,000 in the fund, and that might last about 3 days.
Cal: Phil has a good suggestion; we could get the paint off and stain it, but we really need to get an engineering firm in. For the church, we were on it every other year. We finally gave up and sided it with vinyl. It can be made to look very nice and be properly insulated.
We need to know what needs to be done first and second, for example, and then approach it over time. This is still a nice building.
John Festa: I am sure we would be in agreement that it is worth keeping.
Vinyl siding might take away historical value. How long do you want to protect the historical aspects?
Linda Ehlert: For buildings on the National Register, they absolutely do not want you to put vinyl on it. We can go back to the Ohio Historic Preservation Office and ask for help.
John Festa: There are probably way more applicants than funds.
Linda: A lot of the grants today, they try to help veterans or community buildings for seniors or school children. Those take precedence over a meeting place.
I also have information and a resume from Elwin Robison, who is an architect and engineer on historic structures.
Jason asked if we would have to pay for that help. Continuing: I think we need to get professional opinionr but I do not want to spin wheels, and we get a long report and if they do not get the work, why should they help us? So we need perhaps to get a paid-for opinion.
Marie: We may have to do it over a couple of years.
John Festa: There is a lot of talent in the community and I am sure people would step up and put together something we could rely on and move forward. The building does need our attention. Every time I drive by, it looks as if it has gotten worse.
Dave Pollard: When you put vinyl siding on older buildings, because the walls are not straight, with post and beam construction, the walls are bowed. A contractor probably does not want to shim the walls to get them straight. Lapped siding does not blow off, but vinyl siding blows of all the time.
Simply because the lapped wooden siding will not blow off, over the long term it might not be as expensive as vinyl. I think it would look better in the long run, once the humidity problem is handled. With the humidity, a paint that will stick no matter what would cause the building to rot from the inside.
They are cutting tulip poplar again for siding and it does not rot. It will not be cheap. I have a friend who specializes in post and beam construction who said he would come and look at the buildings if we wanted.
Larry Leitzow: John Frost is pretty good at this stuff and might give you an opinion for nothing.
Frank Horack: No matter what you do, you have to eliminate the moisture.
Jason asked Vic and John Festa for their comments.
John Festa: I think we are moving in the right direction. We know we have a problem and need to seek outside opinions We can work with the community and work out a game plan. He thought he could bet John Frost.
Vic: Dave Pollard also thought he had someone. All three painters said the humidity was the problem and that putting in the new windows had tightened things enough so that the moisture can not get out except through the wood.
Continuing: So I think we need to get some outside help. The drainage that was put in here was done by me and Steve Oros.
Jason: Somaybe at the meeting after the next one we can have some information.
Phil: We are all guessing about why that cupola was put on, but when the wind blows from the east, no air flow occurs. But this was originally a school and the cupola may have been a belfry, and not ventilation. This was a school at one time.
Frank Horack: There is a bell up there. Frank mentioned a pipe and a pulley.
Vic: That is how we got the bricks up there [to do the chimney]. We left it up in case someone wanted to work up there again.
Blogger: It was now about 7:45, and the meeting was effectively over. An executive session followed to discuss personnel matters.
Blogger's note: This meeting comes after months of debate or at least commentary about the Township Hall, and also after many suggestions that were more or less ignored but now are being seen as the way to go. If you, the reader, can stand it, I recommend that you skim back over the blog since early May to see who said what and how various comments were received.
Dan: I agree with everything Frank said except for venting the side walls. I think you should pull a couple of pieces of siding to see what is in there. The normal construction should be cross-braced throughout. In the old buildings, you don't vent the side walls.
I would put in power vents and then vents in the roof.
You can look--you can see where all the water could be running in. There are huge cracks, and you can smell how musty it is--it is coming in from the ground.
Vic: The humidity down there is terrific. The humidity in the basement in July was 68% and 70% and the temperature was 70 degrees.
Frank Horack: The power vent is my last choice.
Vic: One of the reasons we did not put vents into the roof is because of the historical character.
Frank: You keep the historical character as much as you can. You have a bad moisture problem which is not cheap to fix. The painting is just cosmetic and will deteriorate again in 2-3 years. Whoever poured the pad put the cement up against the wood and the wood is rotting. On new construction, the Portage County Building Code is [to have] 8" bewtween concrete and wood. Originally there was no basement, but just a crawl space.
Frank, continuing: I think you should get an independent person in who works on historic buildings or an architect who does this kind of thing.
John Festa: I have [?] a gentleman on a job site about 3 weeks ago, and he is in the renovation business doing the church in Aurora now. When I told him I was from the Township he told me that his name is John Frost, and he was one of the original Frosts. John said that he asked if Mr. Frost would look at the buildings as a courtesy. He may give us a favorable rate to look. I have not called him yet, but that is one avenue we could go down.
Vic: That is what Cal Brant mentioned--get an engineering firm. The one painter I talked with did not want to do the job and told us what our problems were and recommended not using one type of paint [that had been under discussion--Blogger]. It sticks too well and the water gets under it and then blisters it.
Frank Horack: The wall is bowed out because of the moisture. They do not make a paint good enough to stop the blistering. Painting will not stop the moisture but will just contain it in the building.
The big question is the money to fix it. When you restore any building, it is a lot more expensive than for new.
Jason asked if there were any other comments.
Phil Derthick: If my memory serves me, the same guy painted both buildings [the Township Hall and the Civic Center]. The Civic Center paint today is still on it. I think the paint today is better than what we had. I can warn you that if you begin to power wash this building--what were they going to do power washing -- were they going to get all the paint off?
John Festa: No.
Phil: The next time, would the edges of the [old] paint roll up and need to be scraped? I don't think you remember what the window sills and boards looked like before we started to paint. It was all badly deteriorated. If you power wash too hard, you will pull off what we put on. Phil also described the kind of repair that had been done to some of the boards--caulk and anothyer layer. Has anyone pulled the plugs out of the side of t he building?
John Festa: No.
Phil: If we pulled them, can we tell what kind of insulation is t here? Why not do that and see what is going on and then replace it with a bigger plug? I think one recommendation was to put stain over it to protect the wood and get you through until the problem can be fixed. Over time, the paint will come off. Someone Phil worked with suggested letting time peel the paint before applying new.
Jason: We can try to tackle some of this but we need a game plan.
Larry Leitzow: There is no sense in painting it until it has been fixed. Are there grants available? People are here from the historical society--they ought to know how to do this. If it needs to be re-lapped, how much would that cost? Removing the siding will probably damage it. [Blogger: It depends on who removes it, and with what tools.]
Larry Houck: The work being done in Aurora seems to be getting done right. You might want to talk to them. [Blogger: Just a reminder: Aurora is a city and has an income tax. Between that and the probable per capita income there, money is more readily available to do things.]
Frank Horack asked about the energy grant that was used for the school: Is there anything else or new?
Vic: We have not heard about any new money. Vic reviewed how those grants worked. It would take time to research what is out there.
Linda Ehlert: The Ohio Historic Preservation Office--like everything else, with the economy, they are not taking applications through 2012. In doing some calls about painting and other issues, I talked with someone in the area. There is a program that has recently given Streetsboro $45,000 to repair their school. I can try to contact that gentleman and see if they would do anything for old buildings. I think the problem sometimes is that because it is a township building, that is a problem.
When I talked to them about a amsll amount, I was told t hat they had programs for community projects that would provide larger amounts. I could contact him and see about whether they could do this.
Jason: We are talking significant dollars. This is a tough issue with appearance, but the real issue is the moisture. It does not seem to be just one problem. It is very expensive.
We have $14,000--$15,000 in the fund, and that might last about 3 days.
Cal: Phil has a good suggestion; we could get the paint off and stain it, but we really need to get an engineering firm in. For the church, we were on it every other year. We finally gave up and sided it with vinyl. It can be made to look very nice and be properly insulated.
We need to know what needs to be done first and second, for example, and then approach it over time. This is still a nice building.
John Festa: I am sure we would be in agreement that it is worth keeping.
Vinyl siding might take away historical value. How long do you want to protect the historical aspects?
Linda Ehlert: For buildings on the National Register, they absolutely do not want you to put vinyl on it. We can go back to the Ohio Historic Preservation Office and ask for help.
John Festa: There are probably way more applicants than funds.
Linda: A lot of the grants today, they try to help veterans or community buildings for seniors or school children. Those take precedence over a meeting place.
I also have information and a resume from Elwin Robison, who is an architect and engineer on historic structures.
Jason asked if we would have to pay for that help. Continuing: I think we need to get professional opinionr but I do not want to spin wheels, and we get a long report and if they do not get the work, why should they help us? So we need perhaps to get a paid-for opinion.
Marie: We may have to do it over a couple of years.
John Festa: There is a lot of talent in the community and I am sure people would step up and put together something we could rely on and move forward. The building does need our attention. Every time I drive by, it looks as if it has gotten worse.
Dave Pollard: When you put vinyl siding on older buildings, because the walls are not straight, with post and beam construction, the walls are bowed. A contractor probably does not want to shim the walls to get them straight. Lapped siding does not blow off, but vinyl siding blows of all the time.
Simply because the lapped wooden siding will not blow off, over the long term it might not be as expensive as vinyl. I think it would look better in the long run, once the humidity problem is handled. With the humidity, a paint that will stick no matter what would cause the building to rot from the inside.
They are cutting tulip poplar again for siding and it does not rot. It will not be cheap. I have a friend who specializes in post and beam construction who said he would come and look at the buildings if we wanted.
Larry Leitzow: John Frost is pretty good at this stuff and might give you an opinion for nothing.
Frank Horack: No matter what you do, you have to eliminate the moisture.
Jason asked Vic and John Festa for their comments.
John Festa: I think we are moving in the right direction. We know we have a problem and need to seek outside opinions We can work with the community and work out a game plan. He thought he could bet John Frost.
Vic: Dave Pollard also thought he had someone. All three painters said the humidity was the problem and that putting in the new windows had tightened things enough so that the moisture can not get out except through the wood.
Continuing: So I think we need to get some outside help. The drainage that was put in here was done by me and Steve Oros.
Jason: Somaybe at the meeting after the next one we can have some information.
Phil: We are all guessing about why that cupola was put on, but when the wind blows from the east, no air flow occurs. But this was originally a school and the cupola may have been a belfry, and not ventilation. This was a school at one time.
Frank Horack: There is a bell up there. Frank mentioned a pipe and a pulley.
Vic: That is how we got the bricks up there [to do the chimney]. We left it up in case someone wanted to work up there again.
Blogger: It was now about 7:45, and the meeting was effectively over. An executive session followed to discuss personnel matters.
Blogger's note: This meeting comes after months of debate or at least commentary about the Township Hall, and also after many suggestions that were more or less ignored but now are being seen as the way to go. If you, the reader, can stand it, I recommend that you skim back over the blog since early May to see who said what and how various comments were received.
Sunday, September 2, 2012
Mantua Twp. Trustees Special Meeting re Township Hall
Foreword: If you are somewhat new to reading the blog, items inserted in square brackets are the blogger's additions. Some are clarification, and some are editorial.
The meeting was held on August 27, 2012. Jason Carlton called the meeting to order around 6:35 with an introductory comment: that Vic and John Festa wanted, at the last regular meeting, to gather facts and bring them to this meeting and come to a decision about paint and ventilation.
Vic began by reviewing the recent history of discussion about painting the Township Hall. He asked about the resolution to have Scotts' Painting and then switching to All Pro. Vic wanted to know about repercussions now that we are going with All Pro.
John Festa: I don't know that we made a decision to go with them. [Scott's. But there was a resolution. See previous blogs, or the official minutes.] They [All Pro, I believe] have a good rating with the Better Business Bureau.
Continuing: Another reason I rescinded on Scott's was that I asked him for a copy of his Workmens Comp, and he did not produce it. Nothing was ever signed. [Blogger: That last sentence is in my notes. I believe it is John Festa's comment.]
John Festa said that one of the stipulations was to provide us with insurance and that was never met.
Vic: On August 17 I had Cal Brant go up and look into the cupola.
Cal: Was there ever a bid sheet or a prepared sheet, or did you just go get three random bids?
John Festa: That's all I did.
Cal: So you deleted local talent. Was there ever a bid sheet of what had to be done in the cupola?
Jason: I don't think we know what needs to be done. What we are doing is trying to get some experts to come in and say what should be done, and every expert may have a different opinion.
Cal: You need to have a bid sheet if you ar e going to get a competent bid.
Jason: Were you up in the cupola?
Cal: Yes.
Vic: We went up and discussed the trim work and the size of the fan. I have current pricing on fan sizes and I [checked] at Grainger about a thermostat to control the fan. [Blogger: As you will see as the summary goes on, moisture is a factor in the condition of the building, and in an earlier meeting or an informal conversation, Vic commented on getting air flow up through the building to help draw air out.]
Cal: Did you size the fan?
Vic: Yes--there is a 24" and a 30". Cal asked Vic's opinion about what was needed. Reply: According to the book, a 24" fan would be OK.
Cal: A 30" fan would probably be better.
Vic gave some details on what he had checked on. He faxed things to Cal and asked if he had received that.
Cal: I looked at McMaster Carr, and there prices are lower by about $100. Going with a 24: fan would be cheaper. But how are we going to get the fan to draw?
Marie Stehli: I began in 1996 and do not have any records from then. I will have to go back into the records.
Vic: Phil Derthick and I ran a tape into the wall and we did not find much.
Cal: If there is insulation, it will be difficult. We will have to get down to the bigger ventilator in the bottom. I am not convinced it is a total ventilation issue. The second floor and the first floor exterior walls are not the same [in terms of the paint condition, which is the symptom of the problems].
Where to mount the vent upstairs and the shutters and blocking the shutters for the winter--all have to be considered. I do not want to draw moisture in from the outside, and that is why I wanted to get an engineering firm in.
John Festa: I brought Frank Horack and Dan Cozzens in with me and they are pretty well versed in this. I don't think you can even draw it up even if it were vented down here. John asked Frank Horack for his opinion.
Frank: You would be lucky to use 30% of the wall space because of all of the solid bracing. [Blogger: As I understand it, this is a reference to the way buildings were constructed in the 19th century. The bracing would interfere with various remedies--but I believe no one really knows what is behind the cladding on the outside of the building.]
John Festa: So the ventilation is an issue and another is the water getting down into the structure. There is gravel and debris against the wall of the building.
Vic: There is a footer and a solid pipe to carry the water away [on the south side of the building]. On the north side of the building there is no drain.
John Festa: I don't think painting is enough on this building. There is a lot of work to be done, and the foundations need to be tuck pointed. We have to get the water away from the building. I think we should consider getting an unbiased opinion to tell us what this building needs. We have a lot of talent in the township, but we need an unbiased opinion. [Blogger: If you are curious enough to go back through previous blogs, several months ago Cal Brant suggested or urged getting an engineer or engineering firm in to look at the building and make recommendations.]
John Festa: This needs a lot more than I had imagined. Paint is not going to do the job.
Cal: I would scrape this building through the winter and in the spring it would loosen up and then scrape it again and then power wash it and prime the whole building. Cal did not think the whole building had been primed, but Phil Derthick had done the job a number of years ago and said it had been primed./
John Festa: I am inclined to say the building needs to be painted, but it needs some other things done before we move forward and spend the money [on paint].
Jason to Frank Horack: Frank said that his observations and comments were quite lengthy. He handed Jason two pages of notes, [which may be available from Marie as a public records request]. Frank said that the peeling and blistering paint were due to moisture, [as Vic has been saying]. Frank thought that the location of its coming into the building should be found and fixed. He attributed some of the problem to the method of construction and the cross bracing. The building predates insulation. At some point the heating bill got too high and insulation was blown into the walls. At that time, the insulation was cellulose, which becomes a sponge when water gets into it.
There is a row of beams all the way around at the top of the first floor and they prevent venting. There is no subsiding on this building. Lap siding was put on over the studs. There are therefore holes that let moisture get in. You have to stop the moisture. [Blogger: I really don't understand why all of this is presented as if it is new and has never been said before, when both Vic and Cal have said essentially the same thing. Is there something wrong with saying that you agree with someone else?]
Two dehumidifiers running in the basement indicate that there is moisture. Sandstone is porous and sucks up moisture--it is one of the worst materials for the foundation.
About the drainage: Vic stated that there are two pipes. The lower one is perforated and the upper one is solid.
Frank recommended that for the whole building. The proper way to stop it is to do the same thing [all around] as was don on the south side but go a little further. Power wash the sandstone, tuck point it, and cover it with tar. Above ground the same thing should be done, but sealed with a clear coat. It does not detract from the appearance. It takes money.
Also, it should be sprayed on the inside with foam. The dirt floor should have visqueen on it but I can't crawl in there and do it. It is just a little crawl space. The way the building is made, the water could be lead directly into the building because of the way the lap siding is applied. The cellulose insulation was the worst thing that could have been done. [Blogger: My question here is to ask what was available when the building was insulated? If cellulose was all that was available, subsequent developments have brought improvements, but if they were still in the future, people were using the best solutions they had at the time.]
Frank, continuing: Where the cross bars are, it will have to be double vented. A foam is being developed that is not oil based and is being developed by a company in the township. The foam comes in 1/2 lb. or 1 lb. classifications: how much do you want to spend? If the walls are foamed solid, the moisture can not get in and you would not need the ventilation. You can even foam attics.
You can try to save the siding or put on new and make it look old. The problem with the siding is that the people who put the windows in should have taken a lead paint sample and told you about it. I think they used the vacuum because of the lead paint. Before you scrape, get a lead based trained person to test and tell you what is there.
As far as the upstairs, to help the attic only, there are ways to do that. You can not put a ridge vent on because of the sold 4 X [? Blogger: I lost that word]. You could put a fan in the cupola, but you have problems. Someone put plywood in there, and plugged it. The purpose of the cupola to begin with was to vent the room.
There is also a problem with the chimney. There is daylight visible through the flashing. When the guys painted the interior [earlier in the year--"Larry's team"], they used Kilz to kill the mold, but there is a brown stain coming through again because of the chimney. [Blogger: FYI, nary a word about mold in the Township Hall, nor lead based paint either, was ever breathed during the flurry of activity when the interior was painted. But at every meeting a major theme from one source during public comment was mold and lead paint in the school. Now that I think of it, was that a diversion from conditions at the Township Hall? I can only ask the question, in light of the comments recorded here.]
Vic commented on what had been done. The chimney was done about 2000. We used a 93% efficiency furnace so we would not be putting gas fumes through there.
Frank: Thirty years ago, I could pull the bricks and mortar out with my hands. But dhey did not have the good cement like we have today.
Cal Brant: You have to line that. Moisture will come through the brick if you do not do that.
Frank estimated that the furnace did not actually use the chimney.
Vic: We used concrete to seal it.
Frank: In three years concrete cracks and needs to be redone. If you foam the walls, that is expensive but it is permanent.
There was discussion about the vent plugs in the exterior walls of the building.
Frank was of the opinion that the cellulose was kept, the problem could not be solved in one year.
Vic said the only paper work he had was from 1981, but Marie remembers that the walls were done after that.
Frank: The cellulose is nice insulation but is useless if it gets wet.
[Blogger: This is about halfway through the discussion, and I have enjoyed about as much of this as I can stand for one sitting]
The meeting was held on August 27, 2012. Jason Carlton called the meeting to order around 6:35 with an introductory comment: that Vic and John Festa wanted, at the last regular meeting, to gather facts and bring them to this meeting and come to a decision about paint and ventilation.
Vic began by reviewing the recent history of discussion about painting the Township Hall. He asked about the resolution to have Scotts' Painting and then switching to All Pro. Vic wanted to know about repercussions now that we are going with All Pro.
John Festa: I don't know that we made a decision to go with them. [Scott's. But there was a resolution. See previous blogs, or the official minutes.] They [All Pro, I believe] have a good rating with the Better Business Bureau.
Continuing: Another reason I rescinded on Scott's was that I asked him for a copy of his Workmens Comp, and he did not produce it. Nothing was ever signed. [Blogger: That last sentence is in my notes. I believe it is John Festa's comment.]
John Festa said that one of the stipulations was to provide us with insurance and that was never met.
Vic: On August 17 I had Cal Brant go up and look into the cupola.
Cal: Was there ever a bid sheet or a prepared sheet, or did you just go get three random bids?
John Festa: That's all I did.
Cal: So you deleted local talent. Was there ever a bid sheet of what had to be done in the cupola?
Jason: I don't think we know what needs to be done. What we are doing is trying to get some experts to come in and say what should be done, and every expert may have a different opinion.
Cal: You need to have a bid sheet if you ar e going to get a competent bid.
Jason: Were you up in the cupola?
Cal: Yes.
Vic: We went up and discussed the trim work and the size of the fan. I have current pricing on fan sizes and I [checked] at Grainger about a thermostat to control the fan. [Blogger: As you will see as the summary goes on, moisture is a factor in the condition of the building, and in an earlier meeting or an informal conversation, Vic commented on getting air flow up through the building to help draw air out.]
Cal: Did you size the fan?
Vic: Yes--there is a 24" and a 30". Cal asked Vic's opinion about what was needed. Reply: According to the book, a 24" fan would be OK.
Cal: A 30" fan would probably be better.
Vic gave some details on what he had checked on. He faxed things to Cal and asked if he had received that.
Cal: I looked at McMaster Carr, and there prices are lower by about $100. Going with a 24: fan would be cheaper. But how are we going to get the fan to draw?
Marie Stehli: I began in 1996 and do not have any records from then. I will have to go back into the records.
Vic: Phil Derthick and I ran a tape into the wall and we did not find much.
Cal: If there is insulation, it will be difficult. We will have to get down to the bigger ventilator in the bottom. I am not convinced it is a total ventilation issue. The second floor and the first floor exterior walls are not the same [in terms of the paint condition, which is the symptom of the problems].
Where to mount the vent upstairs and the shutters and blocking the shutters for the winter--all have to be considered. I do not want to draw moisture in from the outside, and that is why I wanted to get an engineering firm in.
John Festa: I brought Frank Horack and Dan Cozzens in with me and they are pretty well versed in this. I don't think you can even draw it up even if it were vented down here. John asked Frank Horack for his opinion.
Frank: You would be lucky to use 30% of the wall space because of all of the solid bracing. [Blogger: As I understand it, this is a reference to the way buildings were constructed in the 19th century. The bracing would interfere with various remedies--but I believe no one really knows what is behind the cladding on the outside of the building.]
John Festa: So the ventilation is an issue and another is the water getting down into the structure. There is gravel and debris against the wall of the building.
Vic: There is a footer and a solid pipe to carry the water away [on the south side of the building]. On the north side of the building there is no drain.
John Festa: I don't think painting is enough on this building. There is a lot of work to be done, and the foundations need to be tuck pointed. We have to get the water away from the building. I think we should consider getting an unbiased opinion to tell us what this building needs. We have a lot of talent in the township, but we need an unbiased opinion. [Blogger: If you are curious enough to go back through previous blogs, several months ago Cal Brant suggested or urged getting an engineer or engineering firm in to look at the building and make recommendations.]
John Festa: This needs a lot more than I had imagined. Paint is not going to do the job.
Cal: I would scrape this building through the winter and in the spring it would loosen up and then scrape it again and then power wash it and prime the whole building. Cal did not think the whole building had been primed, but Phil Derthick had done the job a number of years ago and said it had been primed./
John Festa: I am inclined to say the building needs to be painted, but it needs some other things done before we move forward and spend the money [on paint].
Jason to Frank Horack: Frank said that his observations and comments were quite lengthy. He handed Jason two pages of notes, [which may be available from Marie as a public records request]. Frank said that the peeling and blistering paint were due to moisture, [as Vic has been saying]. Frank thought that the location of its coming into the building should be found and fixed. He attributed some of the problem to the method of construction and the cross bracing. The building predates insulation. At some point the heating bill got too high and insulation was blown into the walls. At that time, the insulation was cellulose, which becomes a sponge when water gets into it.
There is a row of beams all the way around at the top of the first floor and they prevent venting. There is no subsiding on this building. Lap siding was put on over the studs. There are therefore holes that let moisture get in. You have to stop the moisture. [Blogger: I really don't understand why all of this is presented as if it is new and has never been said before, when both Vic and Cal have said essentially the same thing. Is there something wrong with saying that you agree with someone else?]
Two dehumidifiers running in the basement indicate that there is moisture. Sandstone is porous and sucks up moisture--it is one of the worst materials for the foundation.
About the drainage: Vic stated that there are two pipes. The lower one is perforated and the upper one is solid.
Frank recommended that for the whole building. The proper way to stop it is to do the same thing [all around] as was don on the south side but go a little further. Power wash the sandstone, tuck point it, and cover it with tar. Above ground the same thing should be done, but sealed with a clear coat. It does not detract from the appearance. It takes money.
Also, it should be sprayed on the inside with foam. The dirt floor should have visqueen on it but I can't crawl in there and do it. It is just a little crawl space. The way the building is made, the water could be lead directly into the building because of the way the lap siding is applied. The cellulose insulation was the worst thing that could have been done. [Blogger: My question here is to ask what was available when the building was insulated? If cellulose was all that was available, subsequent developments have brought improvements, but if they were still in the future, people were using the best solutions they had at the time.]
Frank, continuing: Where the cross bars are, it will have to be double vented. A foam is being developed that is not oil based and is being developed by a company in the township. The foam comes in 1/2 lb. or 1 lb. classifications: how much do you want to spend? If the walls are foamed solid, the moisture can not get in and you would not need the ventilation. You can even foam attics.
You can try to save the siding or put on new and make it look old. The problem with the siding is that the people who put the windows in should have taken a lead paint sample and told you about it. I think they used the vacuum because of the lead paint. Before you scrape, get a lead based trained person to test and tell you what is there.
As far as the upstairs, to help the attic only, there are ways to do that. You can not put a ridge vent on because of the sold 4 X [? Blogger: I lost that word]. You could put a fan in the cupola, but you have problems. Someone put plywood in there, and plugged it. The purpose of the cupola to begin with was to vent the room.
There is also a problem with the chimney. There is daylight visible through the flashing. When the guys painted the interior [earlier in the year--"Larry's team"], they used Kilz to kill the mold, but there is a brown stain coming through again because of the chimney. [Blogger: FYI, nary a word about mold in the Township Hall, nor lead based paint either, was ever breathed during the flurry of activity when the interior was painted. But at every meeting a major theme from one source during public comment was mold and lead paint in the school. Now that I think of it, was that a diversion from conditions at the Township Hall? I can only ask the question, in light of the comments recorded here.]
Vic commented on what had been done. The chimney was done about 2000. We used a 93% efficiency furnace so we would not be putting gas fumes through there.
Frank: Thirty years ago, I could pull the bricks and mortar out with my hands. But dhey did not have the good cement like we have today.
Cal Brant: You have to line that. Moisture will come through the brick if you do not do that.
Frank estimated that the furnace did not actually use the chimney.
Vic: We used concrete to seal it.
Frank: In three years concrete cracks and needs to be redone. If you foam the walls, that is expensive but it is permanent.
There was discussion about the vent plugs in the exterior walls of the building.
Frank was of the opinion that the cellulose was kept, the problem could not be solved in one year.
Vic said the only paper work he had was from 1981, but Marie remembers that the walls were done after that.
Frank: The cellulose is nice insulation but is useless if it gets wet.
[Blogger: This is about halfway through the discussion, and I have enjoyed about as much of this as I can stand for one sitting]
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