Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: This was another meeting at which I spoke extemporaneously and therefore have no record of my exact comments. Here is the gist of it: I asked Jason if he had read the information packets that I gave to the Trustees and Fiscal Officer at the May 30 special meeting. He had, and clearly had the opinion that there were other points of view about what was in the packets. [Anyone who wants the whole text can request them from Marie, but I intend to put the most important parts into the blog.]
I also asked Jason if he had thought about one year, five years, ten years from now, since he has said that those time frames need to be considered.
The elephant in the room is what is really going to be done with the school, and the only three options are to keep it and finish it as intended; to sell it; and to level it and put up a new building.
Selling the building gets the township "out from under" the "waste" that was harped on during the election, but makes no provision for the future needs and growth of the township. The township hall is already stretched to the max under some circumstances. Building a new building would cost at least $170 per square foot, meaning that 12,000 square feet--the size of the 1914 building--would cost over $2,000,000 and the building would be done for in 50 years. [If the amount actually already spent and the work already done that would be thrown away are waste, where is over $2million going to come from? And then do it all over again in 50 years? That isn't waste on a large scale?] An architect of my acquaintance said that commercial buildings aren't intended to last, but that a public building like our school is intended to stand for the duration of time. He commented that if nothing at all were done but the building was neglected, even if the roof fell in, the bearing walls would still be standing in another hundred years.
Matt Parsons and Larry Leitzow had no comment.
Phil Derthick: The cloth being put down on the roads: What is its name?
Jason did not really know.
Vic answered: There are several kinds, for different applications. At Old Taylor Woods, there was a complicated process and several layers. Geotex is the customary name.
Phil: On the website--A minor thing: the picture of Yogi Bear: Jellystone Park has not been that for a long time.
Dawn Pechman: I have some concerns about the records and the meetings. I know we have the right to attend and the right to hear and the right to be notified. I have trouble learning when special meetings are. I am concerned that we have to get records in a parking lot. [Marie has stopped letting people come to her house to get records, but arranges to meet people at the Township Hall to give them the records they have requested. She tries to get as many requestors as possible to come at the same time so that it is a more efficient process.]
Dawn, continuing: I have a right to records and the website is up. [The number of records Dawn has requested, at 10 cents per page, amounts to a fair amount of money over time.]
Mediation is a really neat thing right now. You do not have to go to court but can go to mediation for public records. [If a government entity is proven to have violated public records policy, the fine--and payment to the injured party--is significant. A person who could prove such a violation in suffcient numbers of records would make quite a haul.]
Meetings have gotten out of hand.
It is one thing to talk about the Center School use. . . .
[Sorry. I have trouble following both the logic and the content of Dawn's remarks. This was as much as I got.]
Steve Zelinski (sp?) had no comment.
Cal Brant: How big are the trailers? Jason: 20 by 42 feet.
Cal, continuing: About the Duration paint: People are having lawsuits because of issues. I don't know that we want to use that.
John Festa: The warranty on the paint is forever, but the warranty from the painter is 10 years.
Cal: I am suspicious about these warranties. I have been through this a lot.
John Festa: There are some other people concerned.
Cal: Who is going to be making a final decision? An engineering firm could give you concrete facts. For that kind of money to spend on the building, it would be well spent.
Dave Pollard: I looked at that north trailer and I would love to have it, but there is no way to get it out of there. As soon as someone puts in a bid to move it, I would be happy to pay the township for some of the contents. There are counters and cupboards that are easily removed. The wall skirting is all corrugated steel and I have a use for that. IF you are agreeable to that, I will give you this proposal afterwards.
Has the township bought a sickle-bar mower to do roadsides?
Vic: We have not had one of those for quite a few years.
Dan Cozzens: Is the meeting on Saturday public? (Yes.) Also--the trash outside the trailer: Has it been there since June 2?
Jason: It has been there for a couple of weeks. The scene has changed quite a few times.
Vic: Some things have gone, and some things have come back.
At 9:25 a motion was made to pay the bills. To all intents and purposes, most meetings are pretty much over at that point.
Sunday, July 29, 2012
Thursday, July 26, 2012
Trustees, 7-18-12; Painting Town Hall; environmental inspection, school
In regard to painting the town hall, John Festa had estimates ([rom several months ago, I believe], and Vic had looked at the cupola.
Vic discovered 3-4 pieces of wood in the shutters that were bad; all the rest looked to be in good shape.
In regard to the paint peeling off the building, one of the people who came to look at the building asked if there had been any changes made to it. There had: the NOPEC grant made it possible to replace windows, which tightened up the whole building. As a result, the moisture cannot escape, and [as I understand it] it works its way out through the wood and then pushes the paint off the siding.
The building needs to be ventilated before anything else is done, or painting will not do any good. Also, Vic asked about getting a much better dehumidifier, one that would run constantly.
One of the people Vic talked with recommended against using Sherwin Williams Duration paint--many people use it because of the lifetime warranty, but it does not last.
Everyone who has looked at the building with Vic has said that we need to handle the ventilation before doing anything else. There were a number of suggestions, ranging from doors on the shutters that could be opened or closed at different times of year to an attic fan, dehumidifier, and possibly a vapor barrier. Roof vents would interfere with the historical aspect of the building.
All of the recommendations come back to getting rid of the moisture. No matter what is done, it will take time and we must get rid of the moisture. Without proper ventilation, the same problem will reoccur whether the building is painted or stained.
John Festa had talked to Scott [last name?], who gave one of the estimates and has done historic work. His quote was not very clear about the cupola but would apparently replace up to 8 boards. He is giving a 10-year warranty on the Duration paint, and he has been in business for a number of years. The building is definitely in need of attention. It is getting close to August and we need to take some drastic steps.
Jason asked if quotes on ventilation could be gotten by the next meeting. He thought that we may not need to ventilate every window.
John Festa said that a couple of concerned citizens want to lend their knowledge to the project.
Vic thought that a commercial dehumidifier could be gotten for under $300.
In regard to the Land Bank project to identify blighted properties, there is a procedure that the Land Bank will handle. Jason said there would be no onus on the Township, and the buildings in question are decrepit and are not lived in. [Some do still have living owners.]
There was discussion about microsurfacing various roads. Jason ran through a long list, and Vic asked for a copy of the list.
John Festa, old business: I wanted to finish up with the purchasing policy. I would lilke everyone to take a look at it and discuss it at the next meeting. I think it is an important piece of paper to have to give us some transparency with the people's money and I would like to get it approved.
[Blogger: If you are curious about all of this, you might contact Marie and learn what procedures, safe-guards, and fail-safes she has had in place for years.]
John Festa also asked about bids from the environmental people: Vic, did you ever give us any bids submitted?
Vic: Diamond Environmental gave us a bid. The other gentleman said that the best thing is to have a meeting and see what had to be done.
Then Vic asked Jason about a meeting with Littleton Kirkpatrick. [Blogger: I am not sure that the meeting would ever have been mentioned if Vic had not asked.]
John Festa: After we have this meeting, could we have some bids?
Vic: I have the one and the other one, we can have him come back out. I think the best thing is to have this meeting and then go forward.
Jason: This is a contractor with lots of experience in old buildings. The meeting will be at 9:30 a.m. in the school on Saturday, 7/21. We will discuss different options. Ask the expert. That is our next step.
[This is, of course the meeting that wasn't. Stay tuned. Better yet, come to the next meeting, which is August 2, 7:30 p.m., in the Township Hall.]
Vic: This is a special meeting: are you going to post something?
Jason: Yes. [Blogger's note: Someone asked about the length of the meeting, since there was a memorial service for a recently deceased resident scheduled for the Mantua Center Church on Saturday. Jason responded that he had an obligation at 11:00, and so the meeting would end before that.]
Jason then made some introductory remarks before opening public comment: The meetings after public comment have gotten out of hand. Folks are confronting each other and not the issues. I do not think that is the correct approach. We will have disagreements and opinions, but they need to be spoken in a certain way.
I don't have a timer. If you have lengthy comments or questions, please choose. Then give us a call if there is anything else. [And so part of government will go on behind the scenes.]
I should not have to tell everyone this. Jason then read from the Sunshine Laws the passage that the right to attend a meeting does not include the right to comment at a meeting.
[Blogger: Use of a timer was discontinued at the beginning of this year, which means, of course, that no one knows how long his or her comment will be permitted to continue or when it will be cut off or for what reason. This policy has been in effect long enough, however, to suggest that if the remarks get too close to being critical or demanding accountability, they get terminated. I attended Aurora City Council meetings for some time, and people there had a set time to speak, whether they were praising or criticizing, and regardless of what the councilmen thought of the speaker. The set time limit is a tiny but meaningful example of the rule of law. Ending a speaker's remarks whenever the chair decides to is an example of the rule of men. The difference is significant.
In my opinion, requiring courtesy if nothing else would be a good step--but courtesy has been in short supply for a long time now.]
The next and final post for this meeting will be public comment.
Vic discovered 3-4 pieces of wood in the shutters that were bad; all the rest looked to be in good shape.
In regard to the paint peeling off the building, one of the people who came to look at the building asked if there had been any changes made to it. There had: the NOPEC grant made it possible to replace windows, which tightened up the whole building. As a result, the moisture cannot escape, and [as I understand it] it works its way out through the wood and then pushes the paint off the siding.
The building needs to be ventilated before anything else is done, or painting will not do any good. Also, Vic asked about getting a much better dehumidifier, one that would run constantly.
One of the people Vic talked with recommended against using Sherwin Williams Duration paint--many people use it because of the lifetime warranty, but it does not last.
Everyone who has looked at the building with Vic has said that we need to handle the ventilation before doing anything else. There were a number of suggestions, ranging from doors on the shutters that could be opened or closed at different times of year to an attic fan, dehumidifier, and possibly a vapor barrier. Roof vents would interfere with the historical aspect of the building.
All of the recommendations come back to getting rid of the moisture. No matter what is done, it will take time and we must get rid of the moisture. Without proper ventilation, the same problem will reoccur whether the building is painted or stained.
John Festa had talked to Scott [last name?], who gave one of the estimates and has done historic work. His quote was not very clear about the cupola but would apparently replace up to 8 boards. He is giving a 10-year warranty on the Duration paint, and he has been in business for a number of years. The building is definitely in need of attention. It is getting close to August and we need to take some drastic steps.
Jason asked if quotes on ventilation could be gotten by the next meeting. He thought that we may not need to ventilate every window.
John Festa said that a couple of concerned citizens want to lend their knowledge to the project.
Vic thought that a commercial dehumidifier could be gotten for under $300.
In regard to the Land Bank project to identify blighted properties, there is a procedure that the Land Bank will handle. Jason said there would be no onus on the Township, and the buildings in question are decrepit and are not lived in. [Some do still have living owners.]
There was discussion about microsurfacing various roads. Jason ran through a long list, and Vic asked for a copy of the list.
John Festa, old business: I wanted to finish up with the purchasing policy. I would lilke everyone to take a look at it and discuss it at the next meeting. I think it is an important piece of paper to have to give us some transparency with the people's money and I would like to get it approved.
[Blogger: If you are curious about all of this, you might contact Marie and learn what procedures, safe-guards, and fail-safes she has had in place for years.]
John Festa also asked about bids from the environmental people: Vic, did you ever give us any bids submitted?
Vic: Diamond Environmental gave us a bid. The other gentleman said that the best thing is to have a meeting and see what had to be done.
Then Vic asked Jason about a meeting with Littleton Kirkpatrick. [Blogger: I am not sure that the meeting would ever have been mentioned if Vic had not asked.]
John Festa: After we have this meeting, could we have some bids?
Vic: I have the one and the other one, we can have him come back out. I think the best thing is to have this meeting and then go forward.
Jason: This is a contractor with lots of experience in old buildings. The meeting will be at 9:30 a.m. in the school on Saturday, 7/21. We will discuss different options. Ask the expert. That is our next step.
[This is, of course the meeting that wasn't. Stay tuned. Better yet, come to the next meeting, which is August 2, 7:30 p.m., in the Township Hall.]
Vic: This is a special meeting: are you going to post something?
Jason: Yes. [Blogger's note: Someone asked about the length of the meeting, since there was a memorial service for a recently deceased resident scheduled for the Mantua Center Church on Saturday. Jason responded that he had an obligation at 11:00, and so the meeting would end before that.]
Jason then made some introductory remarks before opening public comment: The meetings after public comment have gotten out of hand. Folks are confronting each other and not the issues. I do not think that is the correct approach. We will have disagreements and opinions, but they need to be spoken in a certain way.
I don't have a timer. If you have lengthy comments or questions, please choose. Then give us a call if there is anything else. [And so part of government will go on behind the scenes.]
I should not have to tell everyone this. Jason then read from the Sunshine Laws the passage that the right to attend a meeting does not include the right to comment at a meeting.
[Blogger: Use of a timer was discontinued at the beginning of this year, which means, of course, that no one knows how long his or her comment will be permitted to continue or when it will be cut off or for what reason. This policy has been in effect long enough, however, to suggest that if the remarks get too close to being critical or demanding accountability, they get terminated. I attended Aurora City Council meetings for some time, and people there had a set time to speak, whether they were praising or criticizing, and regardless of what the councilmen thought of the speaker. The set time limit is a tiny but meaningful example of the rule of law. Ending a speaker's remarks whenever the chair decides to is an example of the rule of men. The difference is significant.
In my opinion, requiring courtesy if nothing else would be a good step--but courtesy has been in short supply for a long time now.]
The next and final post for this meeting will be public comment.
Monday, July 23, 2012
July 18 Trustees Meeting, Part 1
Jason called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The usual opening procedures were followed, including reviewing and dealing with 4 sets of minutes.
For the Ladies Cemetery Association, Amy Janca and Barb Herbold are watering and and watering. They thanked the trustees for the new sign.
Trustees Reports:
Jason brought up various things about the roads, focused mostly on repairs at Old Taylor Woods. The repair would require tearing out the deteriorated area and redoing it, but that is very costly. Jason mentioned a matting used for this kind of work. It is $600 per roll.
Vic commented that the area had been dug out and repaired with limestone and mat, of which some was left. There is a lot of clay right there, and it is pushing up through everything. The Township also installed a lot of drainage pipe there, but that is not an issue this year, of course.
Jason: The website is up and in progress, a piece at a time. He wants the Zoning Commission and BZA to provide photographs.
The official Mantua Township website is at
mantuatownshipohio.gov
Jason asked Marie some questions about the insurance. See the official minutes for that information, if you want it.
John Festa asked about e-mail addresses on the website. [I believe that the e-mail addresses on the website are the Trustees Township e-mail addresses, not their personal addresses.]
John Festa went on to discuss the repairs on the Stirling truck, which he thought should be paid for at least in part by the business which had worked on the truck and had apparently broken something. [Note: The part or place in question was aluminum, with iron or steel having to be attached to it. The aluminum is much softer than the other metal and therefore vulnerable. Do any car guys out there remember aluminum-head engines during the '60's? Changing spark plugs was an exercise in delicacy, and even the most careful mechanic could mess something up.]
John Festa: I was thinking about calling the company and asking them to pay it. If they will not, then I think we should send the issue to Chris Meduri. We paid for the part and paid Brian Tayerle to fix it, and we paid the shop to recharge the air conditioner. The total looks to be about $1200.
There was more discussion about the trailers, and the one that had contained pre-school supplies. The issue of the contents being disposed of and placed outside was discussed. John Festa is going to do something about it.
Then he raised an issue about a driveway on Skinner Road that has had a very abrupt lip on it since the paving project last summer. There were about 25 driveways that had to have work done afterwards, and this one is the biggest problem because the asphalt was laid on top of cement there.
There was discussion about a secretary for the Board of Zoning Appeals. Keith Barton and Sandy Engelhart have both expressed interest in it.
John Festa, to Marie Stehli: Marie, I asked you for some contracts. Do you have them for me?
Marie: Yes. I have been anxiously waiting to give them to you.
Vic reported on the paving project on S.R. 44 north of Mantua Corners. Originally it had looked like a minor project, but now the road is going to be closed except to local traffic (according to the signs that are now up) for 14 days. Traffic is going to be routed onto Crackel to Mantua Center Road and back to Winchell.
Vic reported that the copper wire had been removed from the trailers and could be sold for scrap. He asked for approval to scrap it and turn turn the proceeds back into the school fund. It looks as if it will be a couple of hundred dollars. He made a motion to that effect.
John Festa: The people I thought were interested in the trailer are not interested. I may not want to be too hasty about putting the money into the school fund. We may have to use the income from the wire to move the trailers.
Vic: The school fund I am talking about is a maintenance fund.
Jason seconded the motion.
Vic added that one person had come and looked at the trailers. [I do not know whether a vote ended up being taken on the motion or whether it died.]
Tim Benner came on Sunday, checked the alarm system, and had problems with it. [The outcome of all of this is that Tim's price for the necessary items is considerably less than if the Township purchased everything.] The alarm system at the school was mentioned also. The rate for a technician is about $83.00 per hour. The total will come to about $250.00. There was a bit more discussion and then a motion was made, seconded, and passed to replace the batteries and do a walk-through.
Then there was discussion about Pioneer Trail and how to deal with that paving project. This involved the configuration of different types of drainage pipe and the height of the road.
John Festa wanted to be sure that our road crew and equipment would be used, and Vic said that it had already been spec'd into the project--as has been customary for us.
John Festa: So we can begin in September?
Vic: Oh, no. We are ready sooner.
There was more discussion about the road and its blocking water. Vic said that when the pipe is full now, the water backs up and goes over the road. But in the area in question, there are no driveways, so he does not know what the problem is there. (JF had said that someone had called about raising the road surface and dumping water on their property.)
Vic said he would work on that and would make sure that our crew was there. Part of it will have to be hand dug.
Vic also said that under Old Business, he had some valuable information regarding the painting at the Township Hall.
There was more about the Pioneer Trail paving project, including bid books that Vic handed out to Marie, Jason, and John Festa. Vic: It would be nice if Brian Tayerle had one, if one of you could give him one.
More on the north trailer at the school. John Festa said that the person he talked to lost interest upon looking at the trailers. He also thought it would be a real mess to tear them apart on the property, and Vic added that that would be a big mistake.
Jason said he would accept all ideas.
[Blogger: This is a reasonable place to end this section, since what follows is a rather detailed discussion about the condition of the paint at the Township Hall.]
For the Ladies Cemetery Association, Amy Janca and Barb Herbold are watering and and watering. They thanked the trustees for the new sign.
Trustees Reports:
Jason brought up various things about the roads, focused mostly on repairs at Old Taylor Woods. The repair would require tearing out the deteriorated area and redoing it, but that is very costly. Jason mentioned a matting used for this kind of work. It is $600 per roll.
Vic commented that the area had been dug out and repaired with limestone and mat, of which some was left. There is a lot of clay right there, and it is pushing up through everything. The Township also installed a lot of drainage pipe there, but that is not an issue this year, of course.
Jason: The website is up and in progress, a piece at a time. He wants the Zoning Commission and BZA to provide photographs.
The official Mantua Township website is at
mantuatownshipohio.gov
Jason asked Marie some questions about the insurance. See the official minutes for that information, if you want it.
John Festa asked about e-mail addresses on the website. [I believe that the e-mail addresses on the website are the Trustees Township e-mail addresses, not their personal addresses.]
John Festa went on to discuss the repairs on the Stirling truck, which he thought should be paid for at least in part by the business which had worked on the truck and had apparently broken something. [Note: The part or place in question was aluminum, with iron or steel having to be attached to it. The aluminum is much softer than the other metal and therefore vulnerable. Do any car guys out there remember aluminum-head engines during the '60's? Changing spark plugs was an exercise in delicacy, and even the most careful mechanic could mess something up.]
John Festa: I was thinking about calling the company and asking them to pay it. If they will not, then I think we should send the issue to Chris Meduri. We paid for the part and paid Brian Tayerle to fix it, and we paid the shop to recharge the air conditioner. The total looks to be about $1200.
There was more discussion about the trailers, and the one that had contained pre-school supplies. The issue of the contents being disposed of and placed outside was discussed. John Festa is going to do something about it.
Then he raised an issue about a driveway on Skinner Road that has had a very abrupt lip on it since the paving project last summer. There were about 25 driveways that had to have work done afterwards, and this one is the biggest problem because the asphalt was laid on top of cement there.
There was discussion about a secretary for the Board of Zoning Appeals. Keith Barton and Sandy Engelhart have both expressed interest in it.
John Festa, to Marie Stehli: Marie, I asked you for some contracts. Do you have them for me?
Marie: Yes. I have been anxiously waiting to give them to you.
Vic reported on the paving project on S.R. 44 north of Mantua Corners. Originally it had looked like a minor project, but now the road is going to be closed except to local traffic (according to the signs that are now up) for 14 days. Traffic is going to be routed onto Crackel to Mantua Center Road and back to Winchell.
Vic reported that the copper wire had been removed from the trailers and could be sold for scrap. He asked for approval to scrap it and turn turn the proceeds back into the school fund. It looks as if it will be a couple of hundred dollars. He made a motion to that effect.
John Festa: The people I thought were interested in the trailer are not interested. I may not want to be too hasty about putting the money into the school fund. We may have to use the income from the wire to move the trailers.
Vic: The school fund I am talking about is a maintenance fund.
Jason seconded the motion.
Vic added that one person had come and looked at the trailers. [I do not know whether a vote ended up being taken on the motion or whether it died.]
Tim Benner came on Sunday, checked the alarm system, and had problems with it. [The outcome of all of this is that Tim's price for the necessary items is considerably less than if the Township purchased everything.] The alarm system at the school was mentioned also. The rate for a technician is about $83.00 per hour. The total will come to about $250.00. There was a bit more discussion and then a motion was made, seconded, and passed to replace the batteries and do a walk-through.
Then there was discussion about Pioneer Trail and how to deal with that paving project. This involved the configuration of different types of drainage pipe and the height of the road.
John Festa wanted to be sure that our road crew and equipment would be used, and Vic said that it had already been spec'd into the project--as has been customary for us.
John Festa: So we can begin in September?
Vic: Oh, no. We are ready sooner.
There was more discussion about the road and its blocking water. Vic said that when the pipe is full now, the water backs up and goes over the road. But in the area in question, there are no driveways, so he does not know what the problem is there. (JF had said that someone had called about raising the road surface and dumping water on their property.)
Vic said he would work on that and would make sure that our crew was there. Part of it will have to be hand dug.
Vic also said that under Old Business, he had some valuable information regarding the painting at the Township Hall.
There was more about the Pioneer Trail paving project, including bid books that Vic handed out to Marie, Jason, and John Festa. Vic: It would be nice if Brian Tayerle had one, if one of you could give him one.
More on the north trailer at the school. John Festa said that the person he talked to lost interest upon looking at the trailers. He also thought it would be a real mess to tear them apart on the property, and Vic added that that would be a big mistake.
Jason said he would accept all ideas.
[Blogger: This is a reasonable place to end this section, since what follows is a rather detailed discussion about the condition of the paint at the Township Hall.]
Saturday, July 21, 2012
(Non)Meeting at School 7-21-12
It is possible to exceed the speed of light, I believe. It's via the grapevine. So a number of people besides the ones who showed up at the school may already know this.
When people showed up at the Mantua Center School for a special meeting to go through the first floor with the Trustees and Restoration Contractor Littleton Kirkpatrick, they found this notice on the door of the gymnasium/annex:
Public Notice
The Meeting that was going to be scheduled for Saturday July 21st, 2012 in the Mantua Center School is being cancelled.
As chairman I did not provide ample notification of the meeting on the bulletin board and take full responsibility for that. A reschedule will be forthcoming with the specified contractor and ample notice will be given.
Jason Carlton
Mantua Township Trustee
330-274-2649
For a special meeting, which this was, the lead time required for notification is 24 hours.
Here is what I know of the timeline leading up to this morning.
On Wednesday morning a resident who had heard of the meeting and had misgivings about how well publicized it would be called and asked me to get it onto the blog. I thought it would be better to wait until after the meeting that evening so that a proper announcement would have the chance to be made.
At the Trustees meeting, Jason announced the meeting after Vic asked him if he was going to do that.
Vic reminded Jason of how that announcement should be done and how much lead time was required. If I remember this procedure correctly, the information has to be posted on the bulletin board outside the Township Hall 24 hours before the time of the meeting.
Because the Trustees meeting this week was on Wednesday, there was a 36-hour window in which to get the information onto the bulletin board. A handwritten statement posted when the meeting was adjourned would have been sufficient.
About 25 or 26 people showed up for the meeting.
One of the residents said, regarding the statement about taking responsibility, that it was the first time Jason had actually stepped up to the plate in that respect.
Another said that if Jason had really taken full responsibility, he would have been there.
Vic was there. He is always there.
When people showed up at the Mantua Center School for a special meeting to go through the first floor with the Trustees and Restoration Contractor Littleton Kirkpatrick, they found this notice on the door of the gymnasium/annex:
Public Notice
The Meeting that was going to be scheduled for Saturday July 21st, 2012 in the Mantua Center School is being cancelled.
As chairman I did not provide ample notification of the meeting on the bulletin board and take full responsibility for that. A reschedule will be forthcoming with the specified contractor and ample notice will be given.
Jason Carlton
Mantua Township Trustee
330-274-2649
For a special meeting, which this was, the lead time required for notification is 24 hours.
Here is what I know of the timeline leading up to this morning.
On Wednesday morning a resident who had heard of the meeting and had misgivings about how well publicized it would be called and asked me to get it onto the blog. I thought it would be better to wait until after the meeting that evening so that a proper announcement would have the chance to be made.
At the Trustees meeting, Jason announced the meeting after Vic asked him if he was going to do that.
Vic reminded Jason of how that announcement should be done and how much lead time was required. If I remember this procedure correctly, the information has to be posted on the bulletin board outside the Township Hall 24 hours before the time of the meeting.
Because the Trustees meeting this week was on Wednesday, there was a 36-hour window in which to get the information onto the bulletin board. A handwritten statement posted when the meeting was adjourned would have been sufficient.
About 25 or 26 people showed up for the meeting.
One of the residents said, regarding the statement about taking responsibility, that it was the first time Jason had actually stepped up to the plate in that respect.
Another said that if Jason had really taken full responsibility, he would have been there.
Vic was there. He is always there.
Thursday, July 19, 2012
Consultant walk-through at school, 7-21-12
At the Mantua Township Trustees meeting on Wednesday, July 18, Jason Carlton announced a special meeting scheduled for 9:30a.m. on this Saturday, July 21, at the Mantua Center School building.
Purpose: To have a qualified historical preservation consultant inspect for [blogger's understanding] lead paint, primarily, and possibly asbestos. Jason did not state whether mold would be considered, if I remember correctly. That issue had been addressed in June when two different environmental companies had people do a walk-through, but addressing these issues has not done much to stop the insistence that inspection after inspection has been insufficient.
The consultant is Littleton Kirkpatrick III, who has worked on the Mormon Village in Kirtland; the restoration of the Johnson Farm on Pioneer Trail; and, most recently, the dismantling and reconstruction of the Mecca Meeting House, which is now the Garfield Institute in Hiram. He is a Restoration Contractor.
This is the ideal opportunity for everyone who has been exasperated or bewildered by all of the conflicting assertions about hazardous materials in the school building to hear first hand what a qualified person has to say about the building.
We can only hope that his findings and remarks, based on education and a lifetime of experience, will finally quell the opinions of people with less or no experience.
This is important. Please come.
Purpose: To have a qualified historical preservation consultant inspect for [blogger's understanding] lead paint, primarily, and possibly asbestos. Jason did not state whether mold would be considered, if I remember correctly. That issue had been addressed in June when two different environmental companies had people do a walk-through, but addressing these issues has not done much to stop the insistence that inspection after inspection has been insufficient.
The consultant is Littleton Kirkpatrick III, who has worked on the Mormon Village in Kirtland; the restoration of the Johnson Farm on Pioneer Trail; and, most recently, the dismantling and reconstruction of the Mecca Meeting House, which is now the Garfield Institute in Hiram. He is a Restoration Contractor.
This is the ideal opportunity for everyone who has been exasperated or bewildered by all of the conflicting assertions about hazardous materials in the school building to hear first hand what a qualified person has to say about the building.
We can only hope that his findings and remarks, based on education and a lifetime of experience, will finally quell the opinions of people with less or no experience.
This is important. Please come.
Wednesday, July 18, 2012
Playing Catch-up: June 21 Trustees
You may or may not have seen an earlier post under the same title as this one, in which I ruefully said that I had lost it. I simply cannot take another 2-1/2 to 3 hours to recreate the lost one, so this will be a summary similar to the one for the 7/2 walk-through of the school. Mostly.
On June 21, the Township's insurance agent met with the trustees and the fiscal officer. See the minutes for that information if you want it.
The deadline for Aurora Meadows residents to sign on to the sewer line project for only $240 has now passed; the fee now will be $8,000. Residents have had a year and a half to sign on.
There was discussion about a resident on Old Frost Road, which is not paved, having asked about whether something could be done about the dust. Dust suppression is expensive. John Festa reported that they [residents, I assume] said that the trustees had told them that they would pave the road. [Blogger: What I remember from the election campaign is that John Festa was promising to pave the roads.]
Vic: Testing the school for asbestos and lead paint [again]. We met with two companies and did a walk through of the school to get proposals for different types of testing. One of them was from Mentor and had a recommendation that we really don't need to test everything at once, but room by room or floor by floor. His cost on average was only $10.00 per test. I had brought up before that maybe we should walk through a floor and determine the uses for the rooms. If we wanted to put up a wall, he could test just where we wanted to attach a wall; we would only have to pay for a few tests.
They were impressed with the good condition of the paint.
Mold is apparently not a problem. There might be a couple of areas. Testing can be an air test or a swab test, with the swab test probably preferable.
Asbestos--There are actually several different kinds of asbestos, and [blogger--if I remember correctly from this an previous reports] all are not equally problematical.
Lead certified contractors--we fall into a very gray area. It depends on who you talk to. Some say the contractor has to be certified, and say that the contractor can supervise. I really think at this point that our next step is to set up a walk-through. I can bring the little floor plans I have and show them to you (the other two trustees).
John Festa: Did we ever consider a consultant? [Blogger: Consultant=money. One of the things that bothers me about the present composition of the board of trustees is that the two newest members ignore input from people who have great depth of knowledge and have consistently over years researched information. It seems to me as if all the discussions about safety at the school completely ignore Vic's familiarity with the building--after all, he has worked on it and worked on it and worked on it--and also discount both the expertise and the recommendations of the people he has had in to do inspections. If all you have is the words on paper, it is less evident. In the meetings, the tone of voice says a great deal.]
Vic: (In response to the question about a consultant) Both people said they would give us recommendations. The man from Mentor with HCW Environmental was very impressive. He was the highest paid of the group.
They seemed very informative of what we can do and can write up recommendations of what has to be done.
John Festa: Take a good look so it does not come back and haunt us.
Vic: It would be nice to do a walk-through to decide what we want to do with the rooms and then have them tell us how to go about it. [Blogger: This was part of what led up to the July 2 meeting at the school building.]
There was discussion about painting the Township Hall. John Festa thought we should move forward on this. Marie said that the budget for the Hall is $2500.
Vic asked if anyone had been up to check the shutters to see what would be involved in repairing them before we paint. Are we going to look at anyone local?
[Blogger: There was more discussion about this, but the reports and comments about it during the July 18 meeting put it into perspective and give a lot more information.]
There was discussion about the Fire Department report on the buildings, and Marie mentioned Workers Compensation renewal. See the minutes if you want to get details on those two topics.
Marie: I would like to pass out the cash disbursements before the auditors are done. This will give you an idea of how we do the purchasing. This is what we have done without ever writing a new policy.
Jason: I did quite a few changes that I will get to you. I do not think a purchase requisition is/was necessary.
Marie: I have some other comments also. The e-mail I got from Chris Meduri had no problems other than a couple of things to straighten out. He told me that purchases over $2500 needed to be approved. [Blogger: This is in reference to the multiple-page mostly copied from Twinsburg purchasing policy that was mentioned in an earlier post as including references to a Township Manager, among other things. See my remarks above about ignoring Vic's knowledge. The same discounting seems to be directed at Marie as well. She is sometimes addressed as if she were a not-very-bright secretary rather than the most educated person at the front table, and one with an impeccable record.]
The discussions about the trailers on the west side of the school continued. See the minutes and subsequent posts about that topic.
Public Comment began at 9:45p.m.
Carole Pollard gave a preview of what is planned for the Ice Cream Social and thanked the Garden Club for a donation to The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc.
Hazardous materials: The huge fines and restrictions apply as deterrents to foolishness and cutting corners, but are not obstacles to moving forward. What it takes to deal with lead paint is not to disturb it, and if it has to be disturbed, have a certified supervisor to oversee the project. A HEPA filter must be used--cost, $30.00. The suits required are $20.00 each and can be reused. The total cost to deal with it could be as little as $500.
Lynn Harvey asked about whether someone from zoning could be at the July 2 walk-through and was told that it is a public meeting.
Roger Hurd said that he thought people should sign both the attendance sheet and the public comment sign-up sheet when they arrived, instead of waiting to see who was at the meeting and then signing up so as to have the last word in public comment.
Dave Pollard: Dave mentioned some field tile on the west edge of the cemetery. [Since so much land is shifting from farmland to other uses, the knowledge of drainage tiles is gradually lost, and problems occur when those tiles are broken and not repaired or obstructed in some other way.]
Dave, continuing: Concerning Old Frost: Paving it would be brutally expensive and would involve moving the phone line, among many other things. Have the property owners changed their minds about paving it?
Jason answered that the residents--7 houses--disagree with each other on this topic. [Even on the rough dirt road, cars travel very fast on that road, so some residents don't want it any better.]
Dave: I heard a report on NPR or someplace that many rural townships are looking at going back to dirt roads.
Dan Cozzens: I would like to clarify about the insurance. John Festa and Jason--it seemed to be a shock when John Festa brought it up. Why weren't they notified--why was it lied about? The agent said it was discussed by Marie Stehli and Vic Grimm. I am wondering why the two of you were not included. [The tone was contentious and accusatory. The "lie" was an assumption on Mr. Cozzens' part.]
Marie: The agent usually meets with me. They also want inventory on the garage. Vic is the most knowledgeable, so I asked him to come.
Vic: Everyone had the books from the last meeting--the same as were handed out tonight. We have been doing this every year for I don't know how many years
Dan: That doesn't make it right.
Vic: It was a review and the books were brought here to the meeting.
Dan: I don't understand why it was done that way. [Blogger: And lack of understanding constitutes some evil plot?]
Vic: I see we are getting nowhere.
Dan: Another thing about the school: If you test the first floor and then work on the upper floors, it will affect the rest of them.
Vic: That was the recommendation of a professional who does this every day and that is the way we have done it with another contractor. We pay to have it tested. [Blogger: what is not in my notes is how many times Dan Cozzens interrupted and overrode Vic while he was talking.]
Vic: All you want to do is argue.
Dan: No I don't! [Blogger: Volume and intensity belied that assertion entirely.]
Vic: That is why I want to do a walk-through.
Dan: Pick and choose.
Vic: Look in the minutes of the last meeting.
Vic reiterated that the two professionals had said that where the work is going to be done is where things should be tested.
Jason: I think a lot of questions are going to be answered on the walk-through.
Cal Brant: Do we have a plan for the painting of the building?
John Festa: All I got was quotes.
Cal: Prep is the most important part. Do you have a product compatible with what you are going to use? Did you put out a bid sheet specifying what you are going to use?
Jason: How are we supposed to know that? [Blogger: It's called research. It comes with the territory.]
Cal: He (John Festa) likes plans--I want to know if he has a plan. Do we know which rooms [in the school] are going to be used? No? Then during the walk-through can we have a plan? Do you have a list of the people who want to use that building?
Cal, continuing: Vic talked to the right person and got the right information.
John Festa: I was there, Cal.
Cal: And you didn't learn anything?
John Festa: I learned a lot. [Blogger: 1. Was anyone else surprised to hear that, after Vic did all the heavy lifting on reporting about the meeting with the consultants? 2. No one was left to ask John Festa
what he learned, and he did not elaborate. Subsequent meetings and comments seem to contradict his claim that he learned a lot.]
Vic: (To John Festa) You said the paint was not very good. [This was the paint on the Township Hall.] It was the best at the time. It was 41% solids, latex paint.
John Festa: It should have been stained.
Vic: That was the best at the time.
The motion to pay the bills came shortly after that. Generally, most people leave at that point, and the camera for the rogue website gets shut off and removed. At this meeting, there was a confrontation at the door among several people which which was part of what led to the suspension of public comment at the next meeting--even though the confrontation was initiated by one person who apparently gets unsettled when people look at him while he talks. It is a public meeting, after all.
On June 21, the Township's insurance agent met with the trustees and the fiscal officer. See the minutes for that information if you want it.
The deadline for Aurora Meadows residents to sign on to the sewer line project for only $240 has now passed; the fee now will be $8,000. Residents have had a year and a half to sign on.
There was discussion about a resident on Old Frost Road, which is not paved, having asked about whether something could be done about the dust. Dust suppression is expensive. John Festa reported that they [residents, I assume] said that the trustees had told them that they would pave the road. [Blogger: What I remember from the election campaign is that John Festa was promising to pave the roads.]
Vic: Testing the school for asbestos and lead paint [again]. We met with two companies and did a walk through of the school to get proposals for different types of testing. One of them was from Mentor and had a recommendation that we really don't need to test everything at once, but room by room or floor by floor. His cost on average was only $10.00 per test. I had brought up before that maybe we should walk through a floor and determine the uses for the rooms. If we wanted to put up a wall, he could test just where we wanted to attach a wall; we would only have to pay for a few tests.
They were impressed with the good condition of the paint.
Mold is apparently not a problem. There might be a couple of areas. Testing can be an air test or a swab test, with the swab test probably preferable.
Asbestos--There are actually several different kinds of asbestos, and [blogger--if I remember correctly from this an previous reports] all are not equally problematical.
Lead certified contractors--we fall into a very gray area. It depends on who you talk to. Some say the contractor has to be certified, and say that the contractor can supervise. I really think at this point that our next step is to set up a walk-through. I can bring the little floor plans I have and show them to you (the other two trustees).
John Festa: Did we ever consider a consultant? [Blogger: Consultant=money. One of the things that bothers me about the present composition of the board of trustees is that the two newest members ignore input from people who have great depth of knowledge and have consistently over years researched information. It seems to me as if all the discussions about safety at the school completely ignore Vic's familiarity with the building--after all, he has worked on it and worked on it and worked on it--and also discount both the expertise and the recommendations of the people he has had in to do inspections. If all you have is the words on paper, it is less evident. In the meetings, the tone of voice says a great deal.]
Vic: (In response to the question about a consultant) Both people said they would give us recommendations. The man from Mentor with HCW Environmental was very impressive. He was the highest paid of the group.
They seemed very informative of what we can do and can write up recommendations of what has to be done.
John Festa: Take a good look so it does not come back and haunt us.
Vic: It would be nice to do a walk-through to decide what we want to do with the rooms and then have them tell us how to go about it. [Blogger: This was part of what led up to the July 2 meeting at the school building.]
There was discussion about painting the Township Hall. John Festa thought we should move forward on this. Marie said that the budget for the Hall is $2500.
Vic asked if anyone had been up to check the shutters to see what would be involved in repairing them before we paint. Are we going to look at anyone local?
[Blogger: There was more discussion about this, but the reports and comments about it during the July 18 meeting put it into perspective and give a lot more information.]
There was discussion about the Fire Department report on the buildings, and Marie mentioned Workers Compensation renewal. See the minutes if you want to get details on those two topics.
Marie: I would like to pass out the cash disbursements before the auditors are done. This will give you an idea of how we do the purchasing. This is what we have done without ever writing a new policy.
Jason: I did quite a few changes that I will get to you. I do not think a purchase requisition is/was necessary.
Marie: I have some other comments also. The e-mail I got from Chris Meduri had no problems other than a couple of things to straighten out. He told me that purchases over $2500 needed to be approved. [Blogger: This is in reference to the multiple-page mostly copied from Twinsburg purchasing policy that was mentioned in an earlier post as including references to a Township Manager, among other things. See my remarks above about ignoring Vic's knowledge. The same discounting seems to be directed at Marie as well. She is sometimes addressed as if she were a not-very-bright secretary rather than the most educated person at the front table, and one with an impeccable record.]
The discussions about the trailers on the west side of the school continued. See the minutes and subsequent posts about that topic.
Public Comment began at 9:45p.m.
Carole Pollard gave a preview of what is planned for the Ice Cream Social and thanked the Garden Club for a donation to The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc.
Hazardous materials: The huge fines and restrictions apply as deterrents to foolishness and cutting corners, but are not obstacles to moving forward. What it takes to deal with lead paint is not to disturb it, and if it has to be disturbed, have a certified supervisor to oversee the project. A HEPA filter must be used--cost, $30.00. The suits required are $20.00 each and can be reused. The total cost to deal with it could be as little as $500.
Lynn Harvey asked about whether someone from zoning could be at the July 2 walk-through and was told that it is a public meeting.
Roger Hurd said that he thought people should sign both the attendance sheet and the public comment sign-up sheet when they arrived, instead of waiting to see who was at the meeting and then signing up so as to have the last word in public comment.
Dave Pollard: Dave mentioned some field tile on the west edge of the cemetery. [Since so much land is shifting from farmland to other uses, the knowledge of drainage tiles is gradually lost, and problems occur when those tiles are broken and not repaired or obstructed in some other way.]
Dave, continuing: Concerning Old Frost: Paving it would be brutally expensive and would involve moving the phone line, among many other things. Have the property owners changed their minds about paving it?
Jason answered that the residents--7 houses--disagree with each other on this topic. [Even on the rough dirt road, cars travel very fast on that road, so some residents don't want it any better.]
Dave: I heard a report on NPR or someplace that many rural townships are looking at going back to dirt roads.
Dan Cozzens: I would like to clarify about the insurance. John Festa and Jason--it seemed to be a shock when John Festa brought it up. Why weren't they notified--why was it lied about? The agent said it was discussed by Marie Stehli and Vic Grimm. I am wondering why the two of you were not included. [The tone was contentious and accusatory. The "lie" was an assumption on Mr. Cozzens' part.]
Marie: The agent usually meets with me. They also want inventory on the garage. Vic is the most knowledgeable, so I asked him to come.
Vic: Everyone had the books from the last meeting--the same as were handed out tonight. We have been doing this every year for I don't know how many years
Dan: That doesn't make it right.
Vic: It was a review and the books were brought here to the meeting.
Dan: I don't understand why it was done that way. [Blogger: And lack of understanding constitutes some evil plot?]
Vic: I see we are getting nowhere.
Dan: Another thing about the school: If you test the first floor and then work on the upper floors, it will affect the rest of them.
Vic: That was the recommendation of a professional who does this every day and that is the way we have done it with another contractor. We pay to have it tested. [Blogger: what is not in my notes is how many times Dan Cozzens interrupted and overrode Vic while he was talking.]
Vic: All you want to do is argue.
Dan: No I don't! [Blogger: Volume and intensity belied that assertion entirely.]
Vic: That is why I want to do a walk-through.
Dan: Pick and choose.
Vic: Look in the minutes of the last meeting.
Vic reiterated that the two professionals had said that where the work is going to be done is where things should be tested.
Jason: I think a lot of questions are going to be answered on the walk-through.
Cal Brant: Do we have a plan for the painting of the building?
John Festa: All I got was quotes.
Cal: Prep is the most important part. Do you have a product compatible with what you are going to use? Did you put out a bid sheet specifying what you are going to use?
Jason: How are we supposed to know that? [Blogger: It's called research. It comes with the territory.]
Cal: He (John Festa) likes plans--I want to know if he has a plan. Do we know which rooms [in the school] are going to be used? No? Then during the walk-through can we have a plan? Do you have a list of the people who want to use that building?
Cal, continuing: Vic talked to the right person and got the right information.
John Festa: I was there, Cal.
Cal: And you didn't learn anything?
John Festa: I learned a lot. [Blogger: 1. Was anyone else surprised to hear that, after Vic did all the heavy lifting on reporting about the meeting with the consultants? 2. No one was left to ask John Festa
what he learned, and he did not elaborate. Subsequent meetings and comments seem to contradict his claim that he learned a lot.]
Vic: (To John Festa) You said the paint was not very good. [This was the paint on the Township Hall.] It was the best at the time. It was 41% solids, latex paint.
John Festa: It should have been stained.
Vic: That was the best at the time.
The motion to pay the bills came shortly after that. Generally, most people leave at that point, and the camera for the rogue website gets shut off and removed. At this meeting, there was a confrontation at the door among several people which which was part of what led to the suspension of public comment at the next meeting--even though the confrontation was initiated by one person who apparently gets unsettled when people look at him while he talks. It is a public meeting, after all.
Monday, July 16, 2012
Limerick for 7-16 to 7-22
Those who kneel at the altar of cash
Put their faith in transient trash;
Those who worship only pelf
Know not the sources of true wealth--
Family, true friends, and lifelong good health.
(c) Dave Pollard, 7-12
Put their faith in transient trash;
Those who worship only pelf
Know not the sources of true wealth--
Family, true friends, and lifelong good health.
(c) Dave Pollard, 7-12
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