Blogger: It is the morning of Christmas Eve, with all the flurry that these holidays imply. Your faithful blogger has packages to wrap and last minute shopping to do, like everyone else, so this post is simply a quick summary pass at the December 2 joint Building Assessment, Building Utilization, and Funding Committee meeting and an equally quick pass at the December 18 trustees meeting.
When the blog resumes, probably between Christmas and New Year's, more details of the December 2 meeting will be given.
December 2 Joint Building Study Committee meeting
Roger Hurd and Greg Balbierz (who has solid planning and community development experience) are co-chairs of the Building Utilization Committee. Sandy Engelhart, Lynn Harvey, and Skip Schweitzer are the other committee members. Roger presented a list of possible uses which remains to be focused at a later discussion.
The meeting ranged over a lot of ground. Lynn Harvey commented on a school building in Cedarburg, Wisconsin, that has been turned into a community center without wrenching and expensive remodeling and with a careful eye to its historic qualities. Carole Pollard urged not wrenching our building into something that it is not. Skip Schweitzer mentioned a historic building on the west side of Cleveland that has been turned into an automotive museum housing examples of one make of very unusual cars. Skip commented on the possibility of having part of our building used as a museum honoring our agricultural beginnings.
Linda Ehlert, co-chair of the Funding Committee, spoke about the value of the building's historic status, which relieves it of some of the stringent requirements of remodeling a newer building and referred to the section of the Ohio Building Code that applies to such buildings. Doug Fuller concurred about the value of historic status and mentioned several areas where extensive work is not required. He also mentioned that a full historic restoration is another matter entirely, but he did not seem to suggest that we try that at all.
From memory, those are the most relevant or interesting ideas from the resident committee members.
[My sense of this endeavor right now is that the clients--namely, the residents--have not been asked for much, if any, input to date, even though the utilization committee presented a list of possibilities. Neither the residents nor the builders/contractors have voiced the assumptions that are driving their views on and approaches to the building, and so almost no mutual discussion of those views has occurred. That discussion will focus the proposed work on the building and will define costs.
[Additionally, my view of the contractors' approach is that the school is a building that needs to be massively re-done, with the possible goal of turning it into a 21st century office building. That is their profession. They have not once said that the building should be abandoned. From the first meeting, they clarified that their work is to go forward and make it a usable building.
[There are also many suggestions from the most specialized local contractor that don't look unreasonable on the surface--but their effect would be to slow progress even more and to drive the cost up to unreasonable and jaw-dropping levels. Those comments are made in such a low-key way that their inherent hostility to the project is not that obvious unless a person has been involved in the issue of the school from the time that it became politicized right after the 2009 election.
[A key decision in that meeting was Dan Tillett's request that the contractors have a private meeting so that they could talk freely about every possibility, some of which by implication would not necessarily be feasible, as is true of all such discussions. Dan (co-chair of the assessment committee) asked if the group trusted them to do that, since openness and transparency have been key in everything that Todd Peetz, Dan, and Eric Hummel have said from the start about this process. That trust was given, and the group met with Doug Fuller at Dave Sommers Architects, where Doug works.
[A word about the apparent contradiction between transparency and the private meeting: It's far too easy for something that was merely mentioned in passing or even as a preposterous idea to become a fixed plan once it gets three steps outside of the meeting in which it was voiced. There is enough and to spare of such preposterous disinformation in the township about this building.]
December 18 Trustees Meeting
Todd Peetz came and gave a status report on his work with the committees, distinguishing between facilitating and co-ordinating the process. Co-ordinating the process is more demanding of his time, and the township has now used up the 2014 technical assistance hours allocated to the process. The trustees have a decision to make now. That will be addressed in January.
[Blogger: Despite the spoken intention of turning this over to Todd, in fact there has been a lot of e-mail fretting about it from John Festa, who seems unable to just let it work. He also seems not to have learned much from the effect of his efforts to control the Chamber of Commerce survey that was not supposed to be open to the public. That project blew up in his face, and respondents told John Festa and Jason Carlton exactly what they wanted and exactly what they thought of the two of them. They seem to have forgotten that.
[Anyhow, all of the attempts to force the process have apparently eaten up a lot of Todd's time, so once again John Festa's attention and Jason Carlton's inaction are costing the township.
[Todd's remarks will be given extensively in the blog post for the December 18 meeting.]
There were the usual fairly routine things.
One special thing was that, in light of the school building having been paid off in November, a cake had been donated for a small celebration of that accomplishment. The meeting was recessed for twenty minutes or so while some of those present got a sugar fix and some declined for various reasons.
In public comment, Barb Herbold announced that Amy Janca, who did a lot of decorating of the signs for the East and West Lawn cemeteries, had had a liver transplant and was recovering.
Barb also spoke about the loss of a model citizen, Shirley Schuster, who apparently died in the fire that destroyed her historic home (the original Sheldon house) on Sheldon Road. Shirley was generous in her support of various community activities such as the DMRC and the restoration society. She was a good person, the sort that any community is sad to lose.
The trustees went into executive session to consider applications to the various zoning boards, and your faithful blogger left.
Tuesday, December 23, 2014
Thursday, December 18, 2014
Trustees 12-4-14; Complaints about blog
[Blogger Foreword: Because the second meeting of the month is tonight, 12-18, this post is going to be as abbreviated as I can make it and not omit anything significant. Public comment will not be so condensed, and I put it at the end of this post rather than breaking it out.
[You should be aware that the meetings are now being video recorded and posted on the township website, mantuatownshipohio.gov, if you want every word and detail. Since you would be able to get tone of voice and inflection by watching, that would be most edifying, if you have nearly two hours. But I guess that's what FF is for, too. And now, away we go.]
After the Fiscal Officer's and Zoning Inspector's reports, Lynn Harvey, Zoning Commission, reported that the Carlton mulch issue had been continued to December 11. [I believe that it has been further continued and was not discussed at that meeting, pending some revised language going to Regional Planning for review.]
Then there was discussion between the trustees and Jim Aldrich about cemetery rules. Jim asked for some of this to be set aside until January, and the trustees were all right with that.
Vic had a question about the road work that had been mentioned as necessary: As I went back through the minutes I don't see where we made a motion to do that. We should probably do that--a motion to change the west road and the parking.
Jim said he could get the dimensions if they were needed, and there was some additional discussion.
Vic made the appropriate motion; Jason seconded; unanimous.
Then there was discussion about unused graves and the possibility of buying them back. Jim thought there might be 100 or more.
Vic had checked with Chris Meduri and had learned that some cemeteries have forms for notifiying families. Sometimes the graves get tied up in probate.
Jason suggested tabling this consideration until the second meeting in January.
Road Department: Jason announced that Brian Tayerle is now the father of a baby boy named Jack.
Then there was some discussion about the money available from OTARMA for safety related items. Two new light bulbs were among the items. Two pairs of boots, light bars, and reflective tape were on the list, and John Festa made a motion to apply to OTARMA for a total of $500 for 2014. Jason seconded.
Zoning: The terms of some people on the zoning commission are expiring. An ad will be run. Letters are to be in the hands of the Fiscal Officer by December 18, and could be delivered by hand that day as well. Nick Ehlert and Keith Barton had not sent any notification of their intentions.
Accidents at Center Rd. and SR 82: Jason reported that he had gotten an e-mail from someone who had been involved in one, broke her back, and has been recovering for three months. Jason said he had asked the OHSP for the crash data there for the past 5 years.
Vic added that there had been another one on Sunday November 30, and he had received a call from a friend of one of the victims. He advised Jason to check with the MSFD because they have information on the calls.
John Festa said he had some pictures and it was not serious.
Correction: The woman had just as of that day, Thursday, been moved out of intensive care.
[Blogger: A group of us were decorating at the Township Hall. I did not see the accident happen, although some people were there when it occurred. One of the cars was t-boned--always extremely dangerous--and the pillar between the front and read doors was pretty well bashed. From what I was told, damage like that pretty much can't be repaired. I did not include it in my notes, but I remember John Festa saying he did not want to interfere in what the safety people were doing. Interesting. Having said that, why did he leave the area by driving out past the Township Hall, where there were still several vehicles: those crashed, the squad, and a police car? So much for safety.]
Jason reported what sounded like a claim with Ellerhorst to pay our road crew for work at the scene of an accident on Center Road, where a large truck had gone into the ditch. The statement was going to be for man-hours and materials.
John Festa to Marie: I wanted to know where are we with our renewal on the health insurance.
Marie: You decided to keep what we have.
John Festa: I don't recall making a resolution.
Marie: Either Brian [Savage] or his colleague called several months ago because they needed to know in order to get it handled.
John Festa: Can you look at that for me?
Then there was a fair amount of discussion about the videos of the meetings done with the township camera and an announcement that the one of the previous meeting was now on the township website. [Your blogger did not think this discussion, which seemed fairly technical about how to handle everything, was necessary; residents are probably more interested in the results, unless the cost is exorbitant.]
John Festa then said something that struck me as a little odd to Brent: He thanked Brent Simon for the time he has spend with us and claimed not to know who was paying him and that he appreciated his advice.
Marie asked about advertising on the website, and Jason thought that there could be a section for legal notices.
Jason then asked for Township Hall updates, which Vic turned over to Cal Brant.
Cal: The [east] door right now has been primed and is good to go through the winter. I recommend some kind of foam to try to seal it up.
I appreciate the latitude of being able to repair things, not just get it ready to paint. That was why I was willing to donate some of my time. [Blogger: It was more than "some." It was quite a bit.]
Maintenance: We should do a little every year and keep it up. There have been a lot of comments about how nice the building looks. I think some of the shutters couldn't be painted because they are not fixable, but I would like to get the lift back here and put some of them up. My time is flexible right now.
Vic: On Sunday the Garden Club, Mantua Historical Society, and the Restoration Society (MaRSI) all came in and decorated.
Jason: The decorations look very nice.
John Festa commended the cemetery society. [?]
Jason, other updates: Things are going well with the Center School and the process is really flowing. [Blogger: Interesting. This is hearsay, because Jason has not been at either of the meetings.]
Todd Peetz will be at the December 18 meeting.
Then there was discussion about the jake brake request. Vic commented that the biggest problem was enforcing a resolution about the noise.
Jason mentioned a speed study on Mantua Center Road.
Marie said she had the resolution that applied to that.
Newsletter and recording meetings. The recording has been covered already.
Newsletter: John Festa said that if nothing could be done with the school, then we will have to look for another way. [Blogger: If the meetings are being recorded, isn't a newsletter redundant? And when there was a huge fuss every meeting about how we needed to get into the 21st century because computers and websites are how everybody gets their information now, mere minutes were sneered at. Now we need a newsletter? Now we go back to pre-computer technology? Right.]
Jason mentioned putting a link on the website for emergency preparedness.
Vic mentioned the LAPC [LEAPC?] meeting. The organization is going to try to have a presentation at Mickey Marozzi's [sp?] meeting for the township association.
John Festa: The township association website does not list our website
Vic: There is information about oil transmission lines in the area and the wells. There is an amazing amount of information. The information tells the depth of the wells and how far out it goes and other information.
[Blogger: Look at the difference in the concerns of these two trustees, as shown in these two comments. One is all about appearance. The other is about substantive information.]
Marie: Could we have a sign up by the school? I have almost been t-boned more than once at the corner of the Nebe place.
Public Comment
Dave Pollard, S.R. 82: Dave complimented the people who worked on the building and on decorating the meeting room. He said it all looks nice.
If I could, something that really irks me from having been in the oil fields for a number of years: hydraulic fracking is not new. It was developed at the end of WWII. Every Clinton well drilled here was done with hydraulic fracking. The new process is lateral drilling which was not permitted when the wells were drilled here in the '70's. The wells are cased to 500 feet which is deeper than any water well. Of all the wells drilled in the '70's, only one came back up the hole. So there is a lot of comment about that, but no one complains about the lower price of gas and oil, which is the result of all the new drilling. We have increased our production over what it was years ago.
Dave then commented about what he considers the immaturity of people who seem to enjoy unmuffled noise on vehicles.
Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: I wanted to comment on the building assessment and utilization committee meeting. It went well and there was a lot of information shared. As the new kids on the block, the Utilization Committee pretty well covered the waterfront about concerns [and possible uses]. I think that what just got hinted at was the general sense by residents is that they don't want a Taj Mahal but just want things fixed that need to be fixed. We want a nice workmanlike job.
One of the things that is really hard--you can't put a number on it--it is what buildings meant to people and if you change them too radically you have done violence to what people feel is their home. Our public buildings are kind of our official home. The bright green shutters on the Town Hall got commented on all the time. If wrenching things were done to the school building, I think people would be really upset and it probably doesn't have to be done.
There were a couple of things suggested about historical buildings getting some considerations because of their historical character. A number of things were mentioned that would keep the cost from being sky high. I think a number of things got neglected before the township bought it. But I think the meeting was a nice start.
Cal Brant, Wayne Road: Just as an observer at the intersection--I spent 9 weeks here. Most of it is stupidity. The people on 82 are driving too fast, and the people on Center Road are trying to beat traffic. I don't know that there is a good answer even with a survey. I call it lack of experience or caring.
I didn't hear the jake brake too often.
Steve Zielinski, S.R. 82: No comment this evening.
Larry Leitzow, S.R. 82: I have about three things.
#1. I think Cal Brant did a real nice job on this building. For the time he had to do it, it looks real nice.
#2. The meeting the other night--I think the contractors did a wise decision [about meeting privately]. They know what to do, they are professionals. Let them do their job, they will get it done.
#3: Got a phone call this afternoon. Apparently my name was mentioned again in our local blogger's papers.
[CP: Mm hmm. (Softly).]
LL: That's right, Carole, Mm hmm you're right.
Jason: Please try not to mention names.
LL: This has been gong on for some time. Since there are two cameras in here, since there are two microphones, I want to make it clear about that school. All I want to know is what is it going to cost. Where is the money coming from and are the tax payers going to get a chance to vote on it. If that school passes, I will be the first one to volunteer and get in there to help. I want to know where is the money coming from and whether it is going to be a bond issue or what. Can everybody here hear me including Ms Pollard? That is all I have to say.
Jason: Trustees can not control anything that occurs on any social media site.
LL: I understand that. I am just getting tired of it. There is a bunch of BS on it and things getting turned around that aren't true and I am getting tired of it.
Jason: I completely agree.
Continuing: I would say that the whole objective for all of these committees are for the community to decide how the building is going to be used and fixed up. You have to talk about cost and I imagine in the next few months that will materialize.
[Blogger: Let's take the last comment first. I think most of us figured that working things out about the building would be a community effort--maybe some real discussion and even cooperation. Ha. Not if John Festa had had his way, and in fact, Larry's praise for the decision to meet privately--I will deal with that in a different post--confirms that the community has been excluded. What Jason expresses seems to be what a lot of us had hoped for. It isn't happening.]
[Next item, further up the string: I think it's fascinating that the two people who have complained bitterly about this blog--one of them just above--do not have computers. So how does Larry know what I said, if he hasn't seen it himself? How does he know whether maybe, just maybe, the person who called him didn't do the twisting, with an eye to manipulating Larry into making the attack?
[Finally: If the voters pass something regarding the school. Larry didn't say he'd work to help it pass and then be first in line to volunteer, did he?].
[You should be aware that the meetings are now being video recorded and posted on the township website, mantuatownshipohio.gov, if you want every word and detail. Since you would be able to get tone of voice and inflection by watching, that would be most edifying, if you have nearly two hours. But I guess that's what FF is for, too. And now, away we go.]
After the Fiscal Officer's and Zoning Inspector's reports, Lynn Harvey, Zoning Commission, reported that the Carlton mulch issue had been continued to December 11. [I believe that it has been further continued and was not discussed at that meeting, pending some revised language going to Regional Planning for review.]
Then there was discussion between the trustees and Jim Aldrich about cemetery rules. Jim asked for some of this to be set aside until January, and the trustees were all right with that.
Vic had a question about the road work that had been mentioned as necessary: As I went back through the minutes I don't see where we made a motion to do that. We should probably do that--a motion to change the west road and the parking.
Jim said he could get the dimensions if they were needed, and there was some additional discussion.
Vic made the appropriate motion; Jason seconded; unanimous.
Then there was discussion about unused graves and the possibility of buying them back. Jim thought there might be 100 or more.
Vic had checked with Chris Meduri and had learned that some cemeteries have forms for notifiying families. Sometimes the graves get tied up in probate.
Jason suggested tabling this consideration until the second meeting in January.
Road Department: Jason announced that Brian Tayerle is now the father of a baby boy named Jack.
Then there was some discussion about the money available from OTARMA for safety related items. Two new light bulbs were among the items. Two pairs of boots, light bars, and reflective tape were on the list, and John Festa made a motion to apply to OTARMA for a total of $500 for 2014. Jason seconded.
Zoning: The terms of some people on the zoning commission are expiring. An ad will be run. Letters are to be in the hands of the Fiscal Officer by December 18, and could be delivered by hand that day as well. Nick Ehlert and Keith Barton had not sent any notification of their intentions.
Accidents at Center Rd. and SR 82: Jason reported that he had gotten an e-mail from someone who had been involved in one, broke her back, and has been recovering for three months. Jason said he had asked the OHSP for the crash data there for the past 5 years.
Vic added that there had been another one on Sunday November 30, and he had received a call from a friend of one of the victims. He advised Jason to check with the MSFD because they have information on the calls.
John Festa said he had some pictures and it was not serious.
Correction: The woman had just as of that day, Thursday, been moved out of intensive care.
[Blogger: A group of us were decorating at the Township Hall. I did not see the accident happen, although some people were there when it occurred. One of the cars was t-boned--always extremely dangerous--and the pillar between the front and read doors was pretty well bashed. From what I was told, damage like that pretty much can't be repaired. I did not include it in my notes, but I remember John Festa saying he did not want to interfere in what the safety people were doing. Interesting. Having said that, why did he leave the area by driving out past the Township Hall, where there were still several vehicles: those crashed, the squad, and a police car? So much for safety.]
Jason reported what sounded like a claim with Ellerhorst to pay our road crew for work at the scene of an accident on Center Road, where a large truck had gone into the ditch. The statement was going to be for man-hours and materials.
John Festa to Marie: I wanted to know where are we with our renewal on the health insurance.
Marie: You decided to keep what we have.
John Festa: I don't recall making a resolution.
Marie: Either Brian [Savage] or his colleague called several months ago because they needed to know in order to get it handled.
John Festa: Can you look at that for me?
Then there was a fair amount of discussion about the videos of the meetings done with the township camera and an announcement that the one of the previous meeting was now on the township website. [Your blogger did not think this discussion, which seemed fairly technical about how to handle everything, was necessary; residents are probably more interested in the results, unless the cost is exorbitant.]
John Festa then said something that struck me as a little odd to Brent: He thanked Brent Simon for the time he has spend with us and claimed not to know who was paying him and that he appreciated his advice.
Marie asked about advertising on the website, and Jason thought that there could be a section for legal notices.
Jason then asked for Township Hall updates, which Vic turned over to Cal Brant.
Cal: The [east] door right now has been primed and is good to go through the winter. I recommend some kind of foam to try to seal it up.
I appreciate the latitude of being able to repair things, not just get it ready to paint. That was why I was willing to donate some of my time. [Blogger: It was more than "some." It was quite a bit.]
Maintenance: We should do a little every year and keep it up. There have been a lot of comments about how nice the building looks. I think some of the shutters couldn't be painted because they are not fixable, but I would like to get the lift back here and put some of them up. My time is flexible right now.
Vic: On Sunday the Garden Club, Mantua Historical Society, and the Restoration Society (MaRSI) all came in and decorated.
Jason: The decorations look very nice.
John Festa commended the cemetery society. [?]
Jason, other updates: Things are going well with the Center School and the process is really flowing. [Blogger: Interesting. This is hearsay, because Jason has not been at either of the meetings.]
Todd Peetz will be at the December 18 meeting.
Then there was discussion about the jake brake request. Vic commented that the biggest problem was enforcing a resolution about the noise.
Jason mentioned a speed study on Mantua Center Road.
Marie said she had the resolution that applied to that.
Newsletter and recording meetings. The recording has been covered already.
Newsletter: John Festa said that if nothing could be done with the school, then we will have to look for another way. [Blogger: If the meetings are being recorded, isn't a newsletter redundant? And when there was a huge fuss every meeting about how we needed to get into the 21st century because computers and websites are how everybody gets their information now, mere minutes were sneered at. Now we need a newsletter? Now we go back to pre-computer technology? Right.]
Jason mentioned putting a link on the website for emergency preparedness.
Vic mentioned the LAPC [LEAPC?] meeting. The organization is going to try to have a presentation at Mickey Marozzi's [sp?] meeting for the township association.
John Festa: The township association website does not list our website
Vic: There is information about oil transmission lines in the area and the wells. There is an amazing amount of information. The information tells the depth of the wells and how far out it goes and other information.
[Blogger: Look at the difference in the concerns of these two trustees, as shown in these two comments. One is all about appearance. The other is about substantive information.]
Marie: Could we have a sign up by the school? I have almost been t-boned more than once at the corner of the Nebe place.
Public Comment
Dave Pollard, S.R. 82: Dave complimented the people who worked on the building and on decorating the meeting room. He said it all looks nice.
If I could, something that really irks me from having been in the oil fields for a number of years: hydraulic fracking is not new. It was developed at the end of WWII. Every Clinton well drilled here was done with hydraulic fracking. The new process is lateral drilling which was not permitted when the wells were drilled here in the '70's. The wells are cased to 500 feet which is deeper than any water well. Of all the wells drilled in the '70's, only one came back up the hole. So there is a lot of comment about that, but no one complains about the lower price of gas and oil, which is the result of all the new drilling. We have increased our production over what it was years ago.
Dave then commented about what he considers the immaturity of people who seem to enjoy unmuffled noise on vehicles.
Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: I wanted to comment on the building assessment and utilization committee meeting. It went well and there was a lot of information shared. As the new kids on the block, the Utilization Committee pretty well covered the waterfront about concerns [and possible uses]. I think that what just got hinted at was the general sense by residents is that they don't want a Taj Mahal but just want things fixed that need to be fixed. We want a nice workmanlike job.
One of the things that is really hard--you can't put a number on it--it is what buildings meant to people and if you change them too radically you have done violence to what people feel is their home. Our public buildings are kind of our official home. The bright green shutters on the Town Hall got commented on all the time. If wrenching things were done to the school building, I think people would be really upset and it probably doesn't have to be done.
There were a couple of things suggested about historical buildings getting some considerations because of their historical character. A number of things were mentioned that would keep the cost from being sky high. I think a number of things got neglected before the township bought it. But I think the meeting was a nice start.
Cal Brant, Wayne Road: Just as an observer at the intersection--I spent 9 weeks here. Most of it is stupidity. The people on 82 are driving too fast, and the people on Center Road are trying to beat traffic. I don't know that there is a good answer even with a survey. I call it lack of experience or caring.
I didn't hear the jake brake too often.
Steve Zielinski, S.R. 82: No comment this evening.
Larry Leitzow, S.R. 82: I have about three things.
#1. I think Cal Brant did a real nice job on this building. For the time he had to do it, it looks real nice.
#2. The meeting the other night--I think the contractors did a wise decision [about meeting privately]. They know what to do, they are professionals. Let them do their job, they will get it done.
#3: Got a phone call this afternoon. Apparently my name was mentioned again in our local blogger's papers.
[CP: Mm hmm. (Softly).]
LL: That's right, Carole, Mm hmm you're right.
Jason: Please try not to mention names.
LL: This has been gong on for some time. Since there are two cameras in here, since there are two microphones, I want to make it clear about that school. All I want to know is what is it going to cost. Where is the money coming from and are the tax payers going to get a chance to vote on it. If that school passes, I will be the first one to volunteer and get in there to help. I want to know where is the money coming from and whether it is going to be a bond issue or what. Can everybody here hear me including Ms Pollard? That is all I have to say.
Jason: Trustees can not control anything that occurs on any social media site.
LL: I understand that. I am just getting tired of it. There is a bunch of BS on it and things getting turned around that aren't true and I am getting tired of it.
Jason: I completely agree.
Continuing: I would say that the whole objective for all of these committees are for the community to decide how the building is going to be used and fixed up. You have to talk about cost and I imagine in the next few months that will materialize.
[Blogger: Let's take the last comment first. I think most of us figured that working things out about the building would be a community effort--maybe some real discussion and even cooperation. Ha. Not if John Festa had had his way, and in fact, Larry's praise for the decision to meet privately--I will deal with that in a different post--confirms that the community has been excluded. What Jason expresses seems to be what a lot of us had hoped for. It isn't happening.]
[Next item, further up the string: I think it's fascinating that the two people who have complained bitterly about this blog--one of them just above--do not have computers. So how does Larry know what I said, if he hasn't seen it himself? How does he know whether maybe, just maybe, the person who called him didn't do the twisting, with an eye to manipulating Larry into making the attack?
[Finally: If the voters pass something regarding the school. Larry didn't say he'd work to help it pass and then be first in line to volunteer, did he?].
Wednesday, December 10, 2014
Building Assessment Committee Mtg. 11-11-14
Blogger Foreword: This post is now complete and covers the first meeting of the Building Assessment Committee. It is a combination of a transcript of my notes--not a court reporter's-quality record--and a condensation of the minutes. It is not the minutes, but it follows them closely. My goal is to give a clear account of the concerns and positions so that they are as understandable as possible. They will also reveal character where I believe it should be revealed. Brackets around comments indicate your blogger's views, most of the time. On some occasions, brackets indicate an insertion of a word or two that will make things clearer or more readable. The difference between the two should be clear enough.
Also--the first part of this post was made on December 10. This morning, December 11, I reviewed it, caught the inevitable typos, and clarified a couple of things that could have been construed as implying something negative about the person or people mentioned in a given sentence or section. Believe me, if I think that intentions are negative or hostile, I will say it flat out, not merely imply it. Such a surprise, right?
The first meeting of the Building Assessment Committee was held on Tuesday November 11 at 6:30 p.m. in the annex/gymnasium of the Mantua Center school building, despite John Festa's attempt at the October 22 meeting to hold it in the Civic Center or Township Hall. [How a greater understanding of the school building could be gained by meeting elsewhere is something to ponder.]
Present: Todd Peetz, Portage County Regional Planning; John Festa and Victor Grimm, Mantua Township trustees; Jeff Benner, Benner Masonry; Frank Horack, Aurora Mantua Electric; Eric Hummel, Hummel Construction; Dan Tillett, Troy Construction; Doug Fuller, Architect, Dave Sommers Associates; Cal Brant, Phil Derthick, Carole Pollard, Dave Pollard, and Terri Vechery, residents.
Things began contentiously when John Festa objected vehemently to the presence of non contractors and wanted us to leave. [I understand that he said something about cancelling the meeting because of our unwanted (by him) presence.]
Terri Vechery: I'm reporting for The Community Journal. Do you want me to leave?
John Festa: I do.
Terri: Really.
JF: This meeting was for contractors.
Terri: It is not closed. There are two trustees here.
John Festa insisted that the Building Assessment Committee was always intended for contractors only.
Carole Pollard: That was something that grew out of your mind. That was not in the original meeting. [I asked Todd Peetz about that. The idea of committees was introduced in one of the well-attended meetings at the Civic Center early in the spring/late in the winter. Todd never said that the Building Assessment Committee should be restricted to contractors.]
Todd then clarified the process that had gone before and asserted, we still have to be accountable to the community. What we didn't want or I was told we didn't want was to burden the contractors with people looking over their shoulder. At this first meeting the concern was that the residents would interfere with your job. That is the dilemma. We have a few residents who were at the meeting on October 22. There was no suggestion then that they couldn't be here. [Blogger's italics.]
Dave Pollard: What do the contractors say?
[This question was asked several times, and it was not really answered or commented on until after the walk around.]
Carole Pollard: What's so hard about just asking us to be quiet and observe and just tag along. What is so hard about that?
John Festa: There are people who are not here. [Blogger: That wasn't why he objected at the beginning. This is an attempt to sound democratic. An attempt.]
Dave: That is why I was asked to video tape it.
John Festa: No one made an announcement. [That is open to challenge also.]
Todd: What do you guys want to do? Do you feel we can just meet as a group and bring it back to the residents? We need to be as transparent as possible. I don't want to make people on either side uncomfortable. [Blogger: At the November 20 trustees meeting, John Festa used the word "dictator" in connection with Todd. Now that you've read Todd's comments right here, I suggest that you look at the opening comments by John Festa again. Who sounds more like a dictator?]
Carole Pollard: I have a question: The voice that is determined to keep the residents out belongs to someone who has made a 28-minute video blackwashing the school. So where does that leave us? [I hadn't intended to boldface all of that, but forgot to go back to standard type. The boldface is going to stay. Surely by now you don't have to guess at who made the blackwashing video.]
Todd: We are just trying to get the contractors up to speed since the last meeting and then report to the residents.
Todd then reviewed the committees and their functions. He clarified that there are 9 classrooms and that the township may use three of them.
Whatever the needs are, it is going to cost money. The fund raising committee is looking for grant money or private money or sponsors or money from foundations.
[Later, John Festa raised the issue of selling bonds, and Todd said that it was a bit early to consider that avenue--that the funding committee should see what it could do first. So, since your faithful blogger is also a member of The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., I am pitching you to make a donation to the matching challenge grant.]
Todd, continuing: Once we know what the issues are, [then] how are we going to pay for it?
Then Todd asked the contractors to tell him how to proceed.
Frank Horack thought that the group should have a chair and vice chair and possibly a secretary. He nominated Dan Tillett for chair, and eventually Eric Hummel was nominated as vice chair. You already know that I, Carole Pollard, served as secretary for this meeting only.
Dan asked Todd what his function was.
Todd: Facilitator. Many people want the school no matter what. Others feel the school has financial issues. We are here to see how to make it work.
Dan: Is there a charge to the committee?
Todd: The charge is how to make this work. This committee's charge is to figure out what has to be fixed immediately and the things that need to be fixed but may be more cosmetic than a real problem. How the building is ultimately used is up to the trustees, but the utilization committee will make recommendations and seek users. Ideally the utilities costs would be covered, but we can't charge rents that are unrealistic.
Eric Hummel: Does the Utilization Committee have a report that we can begin working from? It is almost up to Doug Fuller to design it and then the contractors come in.
[Note: This issue of proper sequence was raised at a trustees meeting: Users say what they want, and then the contractors/estimators tell them what it will cost. Then, if my tiny experience of building a house is typical of how this process works, the users review and regroup and revise to get closer to what is affordable. Starting with the contractors in this case is, in my opinion, an attempt to get an estimate that will scare the voters into rejecting the building out of hand. That will be dealt with in exquisite detail eventually. For now, the events of the meeting will be sufficient. A professional with over 30 years in the field confirmed that starting with contractors is a way to drive the price up. Let me make it very clear that I am not implying that the contractors on the committee are going to do that. But leading off with contractors is an approach that can have that result.]
Todd: From you guys, we are looking to see whether the rooms are rentable.
Eric: Is there a question about whether the building has worth?
Todd: The building is paid off as of this month, and I am sure it has value. It appears to be in better shape than some of the buildings I have been in.
Eric: So there is no chance of going backwards--it is all forward.
Todd: Yes. The worst case scenario is that the renovations would take $2,000,000 or there may be something seriously wrong. But that is worst case. How do we use the building to be an asset to the township in the long run?
Cal Brant: Realistically, what [government] building covers its costs?
Todd: You should be trying to cover the utility costs. Maybe [it will need] a new roof. You have to set aside some money to cover the big maintenance items. If the costs can't be covered, how much will be put in from the township to fill in the difference? Once the building is paid off, it's a good thing to have.
Doug Fuller: So what you are looking for from us us information and possibly uses of the building would help us with that. We can help you figure out what is working and what is not. People who are well versed in what is and isn't working can give us a hint of what we are looking for.
Doug also commented that there are two parts to dealing with the building. One is the physical assessment and one is code assessment. Building uses affect building code requirements.
[Blogger: This is a necessary stopping point. Jerry Carlton came and presented the cost summary of his renovation/rehabilitation of the Mantua Village school building. There are enough differences in all kinds of things to make his experience interesting, but not necessarily of any real bearing on the Center school. The total was quite large, of course. Inviting Jerry was, in my opinion, another of the many attempts to convince township residents that we can't have the building.
[That having been said, Jerry deserves the thanks of many people for taking on the project of saving a building that has been part of the Village and of thousands of our memories and formative experiences for going on 90 years now. What if we drove into the Village and it wasn't there? What if it had been razed and replaced with some modern thing that could be expected to look good for maybe 30 years and then would begin showing its age?
[What gets conveniently left out of conversations about demolishing buildings and putting up new ones is that--I believe--the demolition cost is part of the cost of the new building--unless the owner/rebuilder has unlimited funds. That is a question to ask of the voices that still bray "Tear it down"--how are you going to pay for the whole shebang? And how much less would it/might it cost to renovate what we already own?]
The post resumes here.
Upon returning from the walk-through, group discussed a number of things about the building. The consensus was that Doug should go through the building again, and that a scrutiny in daylight would be necessary. [That was done.]
In the past, the heating and cooling were very creatively done, important in order to avoid spending too much on utilities.
There was a general feeling, expressed various ways, that the contractors needed focus and guidance both from Doug Fuller and from the Building Utilization Committee.
The original idea of using the main/first floor for township offices was reiterated, as well as using the building for community-oriented things. Todd mentioned the idea that the building might be used as a center to accommodate everyone from youth and day care up through seniors--possibly all in the north classroom.
In response to a comment about the building possibly being used for emergency shelter, Vic explained that that use was listed on the original loan papers for the building. The building has its own well and septic system, and with a generator, it would be useful for emergency shelter.
Questions of uses/users came up, and if the township uses the building, the view was that ADA and access requirements would be triggered. [More came up about that at the second meeting, which included the Building Utilization and Funding Committee members.]
John Festa thought that Todd's office could coordinate the schedule as well as disseminate information and then have the whole community come in at the end.
[Blogger: Throughout every discussion about the school building, whether in the committee meetings or trustees meetings, a number of comments get made that on the surface of it sound reasonable. The italicized phrase above is an example. Maybe that's all there is to it. But it also indicates that whatever is decided would be done with a very small decision-making body, and then their results will be delivered as a done deal to the residents. Todd addressed that in the next comment.]
Todd: This group needs to talk about the basics of the issues. We need to let the community know what those are and get the fund raising and volunteer committees in on this. We should not leave them completely out until the end. [Blogger's italics.]
Cal raised a question about the committees working in isolation.
Todd responded: On October 22, we talked about having that discussion with the contractors about the issues with the building. Maybe we can do that with the community in early December. You are not going to be coming to the community and saying "this is the plan and we are done." You need to hear back from the community.
Eric observed that if things begin in the wrong direction and create adverse feelings, it will be counterproductive.
Todd defined a kind of catch-22: The Utilization Committee can not try to find renters if the rooms are not viable. At the same time, the fund raising committee can not go out and get money without knowing what the cost is. The volunteer committee were people who wanted to do whatever they can but can not do that until things are in place.
Doug Fuller asked a key question: Can you heat this building top to bottom?
Vic: Yes.
Doug: Electrically, everything is working?
Vic: Yes.
Other questions followed. Vic checked the electrical service: 400 amps on the panel, and another 200 amp service no longer in use because the classroom trailers on the west side of the building had been removed. This was to correct Frank Horack's assertion that the service was smaller than it turned out to be.
Gas, water, and sewage treatment are all handled.. The phone and data system are as the school was left in 2004, but technicians had come and tested the service and reported that it was pretty much ready to go. [Which leaves your blogger wondering what all of John Festa's concerns were about phones, Wi-Fi, and other data service to the building.]
Eric Hummel urged a date to have a joint session with the Utilization Committee. December 2 was set, another Tuesday, at 6:30 p.m. at the annex. At the 11-11 meeting, the group that had been having dinners together had still been there when everyone else began arriving.
Eric Hummel said, to John Festa, that he didn't think there was any damage with any number of people being here. Whatever works. Let's bring people here to talk about it.
Frank Horack: The least the better. [Blogger: A basic principle of democracy and community is inclusiveness. One of the things to watch for is who is supporting inclusion and who is pushing for very limited, selective participation.]
General uses for each floor needed to be stated for the contractors/architects to work effectively on the project.
Doug Fuller: You have a tough old bird of a building, and it can be made to function. He listed a number of things either to work on or that could be made useful. He thought that the windows, although ancient, did not need to be replaced right away. He thought that renters would probably want the building to be cooled in hot weather.
Cal asked how much of each day the building or part of it would be in use by the township, and then he asked about a secretary.
Frank Horack said that "a business lady" would be willing to take notes, and Eric clarified that it would be pro bono.
Carole Pollard agreed to turn her notes into minutes for this meeting.
Eric said that a goal was needed--enough assumptions about how the Building Utilization Committee wanted to use the building to guide the work for Doug and the contractors.
Todd asked about the composition of the Building Assessment Committee and whether the residents who had asked to be on it should be included at the next meeting.
Dan Tillett thought that all could attend but not necessarily participate.
Todd: We want to avoid hard feelings. The non contractors are there as observers at that meeting. Those who are not here tonight should make an effort to come through the building before the next meeting, and an effort should be made to coordinate and combine walkthroughs--do it as a group rather than individually.
Dan asked for the five biggest things that the professional group saw that needed to be addressed.
Carole Pollard agreed to meet Eric Hummel's request for the minutes to be done in a week, and the date of the next meeting was confirmed. There was not a formal motion to adjourn, but that ended the meeting.
[Note: That was done; the minutes were written, proofread, and electronically sent to Todd Peetz and Dan Tillett by the following Wednesday morning, I believe. At that point, they were out of my hands.]
Blogger: There is a bit more. Several interesting things happened on the walk-through. Terri Vechery and I stayed in the annex, so I am relaying what I was told about the events on the walk-through.
To some extent, one of them was brought up in the November 20 trustees meeting: That Frank Horack told Dave, who was using a video camera, not to put him on it--that he didn't want his face on film. My understanding is that Dave told Frank that he wasn't filming him, but merely panning across the room. Dave did not stop filming, and it was made clear at the trustees meeting that it is not possible to prevent such filming.
The second one was that outside, when the group was looking at the condition of the front stoop, John Festa told Dave to turn the camera off. Dave replied that the chairperson and [I believe] the co-chair had no problem with his using the camera: he had cleared it with them at the beginning of the tour. So he kept filming.
What that incident does is put the lie to John Festa's protestations about openness, transparency, and his training in those matters. That was for the camera. What he said at this first BAC meeting seems to present his actual attitudes.
That's enough for this post. The issue of openness and public meetings is not going to go away, so there will be ample opportunity to address it as we go along.
.
Also--the first part of this post was made on December 10. This morning, December 11, I reviewed it, caught the inevitable typos, and clarified a couple of things that could have been construed as implying something negative about the person or people mentioned in a given sentence or section. Believe me, if I think that intentions are negative or hostile, I will say it flat out, not merely imply it. Such a surprise, right?
The first meeting of the Building Assessment Committee was held on Tuesday November 11 at 6:30 p.m. in the annex/gymnasium of the Mantua Center school building, despite John Festa's attempt at the October 22 meeting to hold it in the Civic Center or Township Hall. [How a greater understanding of the school building could be gained by meeting elsewhere is something to ponder.]
Present: Todd Peetz, Portage County Regional Planning; John Festa and Victor Grimm, Mantua Township trustees; Jeff Benner, Benner Masonry; Frank Horack, Aurora Mantua Electric; Eric Hummel, Hummel Construction; Dan Tillett, Troy Construction; Doug Fuller, Architect, Dave Sommers Associates; Cal Brant, Phil Derthick, Carole Pollard, Dave Pollard, and Terri Vechery, residents.
Things began contentiously when John Festa objected vehemently to the presence of non contractors and wanted us to leave. [I understand that he said something about cancelling the meeting because of our unwanted (by him) presence.]
Terri Vechery: I'm reporting for The Community Journal. Do you want me to leave?
John Festa: I do.
Terri: Really.
JF: This meeting was for contractors.
Terri: It is not closed. There are two trustees here.
John Festa insisted that the Building Assessment Committee was always intended for contractors only.
Carole Pollard: That was something that grew out of your mind. That was not in the original meeting. [I asked Todd Peetz about that. The idea of committees was introduced in one of the well-attended meetings at the Civic Center early in the spring/late in the winter. Todd never said that the Building Assessment Committee should be restricted to contractors.]
Todd then clarified the process that had gone before and asserted, we still have to be accountable to the community. What we didn't want or I was told we didn't want was to burden the contractors with people looking over their shoulder. At this first meeting the concern was that the residents would interfere with your job. That is the dilemma. We have a few residents who were at the meeting on October 22. There was no suggestion then that they couldn't be here. [Blogger's italics.]
Dave Pollard: What do the contractors say?
[This question was asked several times, and it was not really answered or commented on until after the walk around.]
Carole Pollard: What's so hard about just asking us to be quiet and observe and just tag along. What is so hard about that?
John Festa: There are people who are not here. [Blogger: That wasn't why he objected at the beginning. This is an attempt to sound democratic. An attempt.]
Dave: That is why I was asked to video tape it.
John Festa: No one made an announcement. [That is open to challenge also.]
Todd: What do you guys want to do? Do you feel we can just meet as a group and bring it back to the residents? We need to be as transparent as possible. I don't want to make people on either side uncomfortable. [Blogger: At the November 20 trustees meeting, John Festa used the word "dictator" in connection with Todd. Now that you've read Todd's comments right here, I suggest that you look at the opening comments by John Festa again. Who sounds more like a dictator?]
Carole Pollard: I have a question: The voice that is determined to keep the residents out belongs to someone who has made a 28-minute video blackwashing the school. So where does that leave us? [I hadn't intended to boldface all of that, but forgot to go back to standard type. The boldface is going to stay. Surely by now you don't have to guess at who made the blackwashing video.]
Todd: We are just trying to get the contractors up to speed since the last meeting and then report to the residents.
Todd then reviewed the committees and their functions. He clarified that there are 9 classrooms and that the township may use three of them.
Whatever the needs are, it is going to cost money. The fund raising committee is looking for grant money or private money or sponsors or money from foundations.
[Later, John Festa raised the issue of selling bonds, and Todd said that it was a bit early to consider that avenue--that the funding committee should see what it could do first. So, since your faithful blogger is also a member of The Mantua Restoration Society, Inc., I am pitching you to make a donation to the matching challenge grant.]
Todd, continuing: Once we know what the issues are, [then] how are we going to pay for it?
Then Todd asked the contractors to tell him how to proceed.
Frank Horack thought that the group should have a chair and vice chair and possibly a secretary. He nominated Dan Tillett for chair, and eventually Eric Hummel was nominated as vice chair. You already know that I, Carole Pollard, served as secretary for this meeting only.
Dan asked Todd what his function was.
Todd: Facilitator. Many people want the school no matter what. Others feel the school has financial issues. We are here to see how to make it work.
Dan: Is there a charge to the committee?
Todd: The charge is how to make this work. This committee's charge is to figure out what has to be fixed immediately and the things that need to be fixed but may be more cosmetic than a real problem. How the building is ultimately used is up to the trustees, but the utilization committee will make recommendations and seek users. Ideally the utilities costs would be covered, but we can't charge rents that are unrealistic.
Eric Hummel: Does the Utilization Committee have a report that we can begin working from? It is almost up to Doug Fuller to design it and then the contractors come in.
[Note: This issue of proper sequence was raised at a trustees meeting: Users say what they want, and then the contractors/estimators tell them what it will cost. Then, if my tiny experience of building a house is typical of how this process works, the users review and regroup and revise to get closer to what is affordable. Starting with the contractors in this case is, in my opinion, an attempt to get an estimate that will scare the voters into rejecting the building out of hand. That will be dealt with in exquisite detail eventually. For now, the events of the meeting will be sufficient. A professional with over 30 years in the field confirmed that starting with contractors is a way to drive the price up. Let me make it very clear that I am not implying that the contractors on the committee are going to do that. But leading off with contractors is an approach that can have that result.]
Todd: From you guys, we are looking to see whether the rooms are rentable.
Eric: Is there a question about whether the building has worth?
Todd: The building is paid off as of this month, and I am sure it has value. It appears to be in better shape than some of the buildings I have been in.
Eric: So there is no chance of going backwards--it is all forward.
Todd: Yes. The worst case scenario is that the renovations would take $2,000,000 or there may be something seriously wrong. But that is worst case. How do we use the building to be an asset to the township in the long run?
Cal Brant: Realistically, what [government] building covers its costs?
Todd: You should be trying to cover the utility costs. Maybe [it will need] a new roof. You have to set aside some money to cover the big maintenance items. If the costs can't be covered, how much will be put in from the township to fill in the difference? Once the building is paid off, it's a good thing to have.
Doug Fuller: So what you are looking for from us us information and possibly uses of the building would help us with that. We can help you figure out what is working and what is not. People who are well versed in what is and isn't working can give us a hint of what we are looking for.
Doug also commented that there are two parts to dealing with the building. One is the physical assessment and one is code assessment. Building uses affect building code requirements.
[Blogger: This is a necessary stopping point. Jerry Carlton came and presented the cost summary of his renovation/rehabilitation of the Mantua Village school building. There are enough differences in all kinds of things to make his experience interesting, but not necessarily of any real bearing on the Center school. The total was quite large, of course. Inviting Jerry was, in my opinion, another of the many attempts to convince township residents that we can't have the building.
[That having been said, Jerry deserves the thanks of many people for taking on the project of saving a building that has been part of the Village and of thousands of our memories and formative experiences for going on 90 years now. What if we drove into the Village and it wasn't there? What if it had been razed and replaced with some modern thing that could be expected to look good for maybe 30 years and then would begin showing its age?
[What gets conveniently left out of conversations about demolishing buildings and putting up new ones is that--I believe--the demolition cost is part of the cost of the new building--unless the owner/rebuilder has unlimited funds. That is a question to ask of the voices that still bray "Tear it down"--how are you going to pay for the whole shebang? And how much less would it/might it cost to renovate what we already own?]
The post resumes here.
Upon returning from the walk-through, group discussed a number of things about the building. The consensus was that Doug should go through the building again, and that a scrutiny in daylight would be necessary. [That was done.]
In the past, the heating and cooling were very creatively done, important in order to avoid spending too much on utilities.
There was a general feeling, expressed various ways, that the contractors needed focus and guidance both from Doug Fuller and from the Building Utilization Committee.
The original idea of using the main/first floor for township offices was reiterated, as well as using the building for community-oriented things. Todd mentioned the idea that the building might be used as a center to accommodate everyone from youth and day care up through seniors--possibly all in the north classroom.
In response to a comment about the building possibly being used for emergency shelter, Vic explained that that use was listed on the original loan papers for the building. The building has its own well and septic system, and with a generator, it would be useful for emergency shelter.
Questions of uses/users came up, and if the township uses the building, the view was that ADA and access requirements would be triggered. [More came up about that at the second meeting, which included the Building Utilization and Funding Committee members.]
John Festa thought that Todd's office could coordinate the schedule as well as disseminate information and then have the whole community come in at the end.
[Blogger: Throughout every discussion about the school building, whether in the committee meetings or trustees meetings, a number of comments get made that on the surface of it sound reasonable. The italicized phrase above is an example. Maybe that's all there is to it. But it also indicates that whatever is decided would be done with a very small decision-making body, and then their results will be delivered as a done deal to the residents. Todd addressed that in the next comment.]
Todd: This group needs to talk about the basics of the issues. We need to let the community know what those are and get the fund raising and volunteer committees in on this. We should not leave them completely out until the end. [Blogger's italics.]
Cal raised a question about the committees working in isolation.
Todd responded: On October 22, we talked about having that discussion with the contractors about the issues with the building. Maybe we can do that with the community in early December. You are not going to be coming to the community and saying "this is the plan and we are done." You need to hear back from the community.
Eric observed that if things begin in the wrong direction and create adverse feelings, it will be counterproductive.
Todd defined a kind of catch-22: The Utilization Committee can not try to find renters if the rooms are not viable. At the same time, the fund raising committee can not go out and get money without knowing what the cost is. The volunteer committee were people who wanted to do whatever they can but can not do that until things are in place.
Doug Fuller asked a key question: Can you heat this building top to bottom?
Vic: Yes.
Doug: Electrically, everything is working?
Vic: Yes.
Other questions followed. Vic checked the electrical service: 400 amps on the panel, and another 200 amp service no longer in use because the classroom trailers on the west side of the building had been removed. This was to correct Frank Horack's assertion that the service was smaller than it turned out to be.
Gas, water, and sewage treatment are all handled.. The phone and data system are as the school was left in 2004, but technicians had come and tested the service and reported that it was pretty much ready to go. [Which leaves your blogger wondering what all of John Festa's concerns were about phones, Wi-Fi, and other data service to the building.]
Eric Hummel urged a date to have a joint session with the Utilization Committee. December 2 was set, another Tuesday, at 6:30 p.m. at the annex. At the 11-11 meeting, the group that had been having dinners together had still been there when everyone else began arriving.
Eric Hummel said, to John Festa, that he didn't think there was any damage with any number of people being here. Whatever works. Let's bring people here to talk about it.
Frank Horack: The least the better. [Blogger: A basic principle of democracy and community is inclusiveness. One of the things to watch for is who is supporting inclusion and who is pushing for very limited, selective participation.]
General uses for each floor needed to be stated for the contractors/architects to work effectively on the project.
Doug Fuller: You have a tough old bird of a building, and it can be made to function. He listed a number of things either to work on or that could be made useful. He thought that the windows, although ancient, did not need to be replaced right away. He thought that renters would probably want the building to be cooled in hot weather.
Cal asked how much of each day the building or part of it would be in use by the township, and then he asked about a secretary.
Frank Horack said that "a business lady" would be willing to take notes, and Eric clarified that it would be pro bono.
Carole Pollard agreed to turn her notes into minutes for this meeting.
Eric said that a goal was needed--enough assumptions about how the Building Utilization Committee wanted to use the building to guide the work for Doug and the contractors.
Todd asked about the composition of the Building Assessment Committee and whether the residents who had asked to be on it should be included at the next meeting.
Dan Tillett thought that all could attend but not necessarily participate.
Todd: We want to avoid hard feelings. The non contractors are there as observers at that meeting. Those who are not here tonight should make an effort to come through the building before the next meeting, and an effort should be made to coordinate and combine walkthroughs--do it as a group rather than individually.
Dan asked for the five biggest things that the professional group saw that needed to be addressed.
Carole Pollard agreed to meet Eric Hummel's request for the minutes to be done in a week, and the date of the next meeting was confirmed. There was not a formal motion to adjourn, but that ended the meeting.
[Note: That was done; the minutes were written, proofread, and electronically sent to Todd Peetz and Dan Tillett by the following Wednesday morning, I believe. At that point, they were out of my hands.]
Blogger: There is a bit more. Several interesting things happened on the walk-through. Terri Vechery and I stayed in the annex, so I am relaying what I was told about the events on the walk-through.
To some extent, one of them was brought up in the November 20 trustees meeting: That Frank Horack told Dave, who was using a video camera, not to put him on it--that he didn't want his face on film. My understanding is that Dave told Frank that he wasn't filming him, but merely panning across the room. Dave did not stop filming, and it was made clear at the trustees meeting that it is not possible to prevent such filming.
The second one was that outside, when the group was looking at the condition of the front stoop, John Festa told Dave to turn the camera off. Dave replied that the chairperson and [I believe] the co-chair had no problem with his using the camera: he had cleared it with them at the beginning of the tour. So he kept filming.
What that incident does is put the lie to John Festa's protestations about openness, transparency, and his training in those matters. That was for the camera. What he said at this first BAC meeting seems to present his actual attitudes.
That's enough for this post. The issue of openness and public meetings is not going to go away, so there will be ample opportunity to address it as we go along.
.
Wednesday, December 3, 2014
Festa Rewrites Reality--Or Tries
Foreword: The post titled "Zoning Commission" has been completed now, if you had read that before December 3.
My goal of completeness and straight sequence for this post proved to be very daunting, probably for readers as much as for your faithful blogger. However, the record of the whole meeting may by now be on the township's website. If it is, I have no guesses about its quality. However, since the attacks on me and the blog claim that the blog is inaccurate (a charitable word for those claims), maybe you should look for yourself. By the time I sit through a meeting, taking notes, work on the blog, and then check against a recording for some things, I have had enough.
The November 20 trustees meeting followed the November 11 first meeting of the Building Assessment Committee. Your faithful blogger ended up being secretary pro tem for that meeting and will report on that in the blog--perhaps to some extent in this post. And now, away we go.
Old Business
John Festa: I wanted to talk about the assessment meeting at the school. The contractors seemed to be pretty excited and had the opportunity to walk through the building and make some notes and asked questions. I think their main goal was to get in their hands what we are trying to focus on. If we want to put Township offices in there, then they would have to do certain things for access and code items.
We went through the whole building. It turned out pretty well. I had an issue the way it was presented and thought about it and thought differently. [This is the first part of the elaborate CYA that trustee Festa crafted during this meeting.] I thought Todd Peetz said it would be contractors only. [Dead flat 180 degrees opposite of what Todd had always presented. Todd's approach always seemed to be that this was a highly democratic, participative community activity. The contractors were added in a memo from Jason, and then the idea slid into contractors only. At the October 22 meeting in the Civic Center which was intended as a kickoff meeting to give everyone a chance to hear the same thing, a number of residents wanted to be on the Building Assessment Committee. One person said that so many were interested because the building was still under threat (Larry Leitzow: "We gotta tear this building down") and without the building, all of the other committees were irrelevant. Another person at that meeting said that the word on the street was that two of the trustees wanted to get rid of it.]
John Festa, continuing: There were quite a few people there from the community who attended. It is pretty good that it be open and transparent. But the whole group was not there. [This is another cover story that will take a while to get to, but we will get there.] They may have felt left out.
I think all of the communication should be open and free flowing. [Blogger's emphasis. Now watch carefully what comes next.]
One of the contractors was complaining about one of the volunteer members following people with a camera and the person refused to stop. I am not going to mention any names, but I am going to make it clear that I am not going to tolerate that. [Public Comment will give the rest of the story on this little jewel.]
Continuing: Jerry Carlton showed up and provided a copy of what he spent on his building. I wanted you [Marie, probably] to get a copy of that. His building was $1,185,000. That only included the interior. He did not walk through the [school] building but offered his information.
[What Jerry spent on his building is completely irrelevant in talking about ours, for any number of reasons. There has been a concerted effort to scare the township residents away from the school building by raising issues about a "money pit" and bewailing taxpayer expense, and just wait until that one gets demolished. What Jerry spent is part of the scare tactics.]
Continuing: The next committee meeting is going to be on December 2 and I hope that everyone gets a chance to be there. I don't want to lose control of the process.
[Eh? The process was delegated to Todd Peetz as a way of taking the bias out of the township, as Jason put it. Todd understands process and facilitation. A process has to be kept working, because people can get off track with dazzling speed. So a process has to be managed. Lay you odds that what John Festa really doesn't want to lose control of is the outcome: to carry out his sponsor Larry's intentions regarding the building. He and one contractor are doing back flips to that end.]
Jason: It is a good idea to keep our finger on the pulse.
[Blogger: And how do you expect to do that, Jason, having been absent from both the 11/11 and 12/2 meetings? Management by hearsay is a poor substitute for knowledge.]
Continuing: Folks on the committee are volunteering their time to provide professional input and there can be too many cooks in the kitchen. If too many people are there it seems as if they [the contractors] are being micromanaged.
[OK. That last sentence is a terrific example of something that is usually hard to define about the way this bunch operates. You've heard the cliche that the best defense is a good offense? Well, a variation is that the best defense is to accuse someone else of what you are doing yourself. There are many examples of that swirling through these meetings and discussions, because we are approaching the end game about the school building. If this examination is being conducted with the intention of developing a good, reasonable plan for us to get into and use the building, nothing will have to be spun. If this was just another ploy on the way to doing something to rob the people of the township of something irreplaceable, Jason will stand exposed by his own acts and no amount of spin will cover it up. Why shift to Jason? He campaigned the first time on promising to work to get us into the old school building. He's the wheel horse on this disunified team. And he knows it.]
Jason, continuing: I have said to Todd Peetz that the residents not cause problems. I think the way things are going so far things seem to be OK. [To repeat: He hasn't been there. How can he say this?]
John Festa: I am not talking about just the assessment committee. I think all should be open and people should have the right to attend. [Blogger: We will come back to this as a separate post or a separate whole section, rather than an insertion. It's too freighted to do otherwise.]
That does not mean they should have input, but if they want to observe they should be able to. I think Todd Peetz should give us an e-mail about this. [Blogger: Actually, by tonight's meeting, the Building Assessment Committee already had chosen an extremely competent chair and co-chair, and Todd is able to let them handle how the committee works.]
Vic: Not all of the contractors were at that meeting and a couple of others were not able to make it. Cal Brant attended just to hear what was said. I think it was a good meeting and we are headed in the right direction. [Note: Cal had stopped at the school to see Ellie Monroe, who was there for the last evening potluck of the season, and realized that maybe it would be informative to sit in on the BAC meeting.]
* * * * * * * * * *
Blogger: This was a stopping point. This post now continues through public comment, one part of which was lengthy but significant.
Public Comment
Marie Stehli: I am speaking for Shirley Shuster, who asked me after the Chamber of Commerce meeting who is in charge of the roads; she is pleased with how the roads are being handled.
John Festa: What happened to the animal hospital [just east of Mantua Corners]?
Vic: They moved it in next to the Dollar Store.
Mark Hall had no comment this evening, and Steve Zielinski wished everyone a happy Thanksgiving.
Blogger: The exchange that follows was recounted in the previous post, but rather than chasing a reader back there, here it is again, with the rest of the story.
Dave Pollard, S.R. 82: First, what was the final disposition and resolution of the issue with the way the chairs were left piled up at the Civic Center after the clambake?
Jason: That was brought up at the last meeting. Did you not get enough information about that?
Dave: When I was helping put chairs away after the October 22 meeting, the chairs were just piled. The Ruritans have been holding that clambake for 20 years and they never left it like that.
Talking with John Festa after the meeting with Todd Peetz, I said, "There is no excuse for this."
He said, "I agree, Dave."
Dave: I said, "Whoever did leave these [like this] should lose their deposit."
He said, "I couldn't agree more."
Dave: I wondered what happened after that. He said that Ruritan members went over and straightened up when they were putting the flags up. If the building had been rented between times, it was a mess.
John Festa: I can answer that. The two Ruritans were doing volunteer work to put the flagpoles up. I brought up the fact that the chairs were left in poor shape. They went in and took care of it and straightened out the mess with no complaint. I had no problem with that.
Jason: As far as their deposit, we left that in Sue Skrovan's hands about what to do about the deposit.
Jason then asked Sue about the situation.
Sue: I am not really on the agenda, so I am not always sure whether I can speak. I gave the check to Marie. I am going to submit my additional hours for cleaning and that will probably come out to about half of the deposit. I could hold the whole deposit but rarely do. There was more than just the chairs. I let everyone know who rented in the meantime to be careful about the chairs.
John Festa: I never mentioned their deposit.
[Blogger: This is one of those times that sounds fairly reasonable until you get the rest of the story. A good piece of the issue here is whether policies are applied as consistently as possible or whether some people get special treatment. The work on the flagpoles was some time after the clambake. The policy is that once the keys have been turned in after a rental, that's it--the renters do not go back into the building.
Obviously, John Festa ignored the policy in order to do a favor.
The other piece of this is Jason's turning this over to Sue. He is so practiced at this kind of evasion of accountability that it sounds matter of fact.]
Next, Dave referred to the November 11 meeting of the Building Assessment Committee.
Dave: Also, regarding the committee meetings at the school building--those really are Todd's and the contractors' and whoever is in charge of each committee.
John Festa: I admit that--I am big enough to change my mind. [Blogger: Not his mind. His story.]
Dave: That's good, because the chair and co-chair and others made it clear that they wanted the meetings open. [Blogger: I was, as you know, at that meeting. The need for openness and transparency was repeated several times by both the chair--Dan Tillett-- and the co-chair--Eric Hummel. At that point, John Festa's statements suddenly changed, and that's the story he's maintaining now.]
John Festa: The trustees were never notified.
{Blogger: Oh? John Festa, at the October 22 meeting in the Civic Center, first tried to keep the next meeting out of the school until two professionals who were there insisted that the meeting be held on site. Then he said he could let everyone in. Vic attended the November 11 meeting, so he knew about it.]
[There was back and forth between Dave and John Festa about who knew about the meeting and who did not. I am of the opinion that the time and place were pretty well known, but that the intention was not to have a meeting open to all, regardless of all of the protestations in this meeting. John Festa's intense reaction at the beginning of the November 11 meeting at the school supports that view. I am not going to try to do a whole transcript of that, but the first five minutes or so are pretty telling.]
John Festa: Let's leave it at that. Every committee that is in this process has to be open. It has to be transparent and open. So if I find out that someone is meeting somewhere that is not open I am going to be upset with that.
John Festa: I am not going to lose control of this process. If there is something I don't lilke, I will say something.
Dave commented that the trustees had hired Todd to facilitate the process.
John Festa: A facilitator takes what the trustees have decided and makes it happen. He makes sure the pieces come together. He is not a dictator. He is a facilitator.
[Blogger: This is the most outrageous piece of spin I have ever heard--to even suggest that Todd has tried to dictate anything. Look at John Festa's comments about control and laying down the law and "not on my watch" kind of things, and then decide who is the dictator. Or would like to be.]
Dave: About the camera. I am the man who had the camera.
John Festa: I never mentioned your name.
Dave: I am a big enough man to say I am the person who had the camera. I never poked it in everyone's face. You and the electrical contractor didn't want to be recorded. The chair and vice chair both said they had no problem with it. I did not feel I stuck the camera in anyone's face. I may do it [videotape] again.
John Festa: Maybe all of those meetings should be taped.
[Blogger: OK, regardless of how this whole post may be to read, trying to get a transcript is enough to glaze the eyes of a marble statue. As Dave stated, the electrical contractor in the group said he didn't want to be recorded; Dave said he was merely panning across the room; subsequently, John Festa told Dave to turn off the camera. At that point, as I understand it, Dave told trustee Festa that both the chair and co-chair had no trouble with the camera being used. So John Festa's great claims about openness are pretty questionable.]
Blogger summary and note: After the remarks between Dave and John Festa about the Building Assessment Committee meeting, Dave commented on what he thought may happen about the video card for the camera that John Festa may get set up in this lifetime. There was some back and forth about that--that Dave expects that there will be a request for the card, not merely what is on it. During this conversation, John Festa made another pious remark about giving public records, as he has been trained to do in the meetings for that purpose. Right. In a subsequent post, you will see how well he follows that.
Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: I think quite a bit about that contractors' meeting has been spun. You did know about it, John Festa. I was gratified that the chair and co-chair and Todd Peetz were solid in their support of openness. Todd Peetz has supported that openness all along.
You can not by law prevent someone from recording a meeting, as I understand it. That is a lawyer's statement in regard to other meetings I have been involved in. Whatever it is, you can not prevent it. That is for audio recordings or video recordings.
I think that some of the things that have gone on here tonight were an attempt to re-write history, because what we heard tonight is not what we heard last Tuesday [November 11 at the Building Assessment Committee meeting].
There is another piece. Nobody else has the ability to facilitate a meeting. Todd does. He has done it successfully a number of times. I think that if this is going to go well, the trustees should not be managing it and controlling it. Todd is perfectly capable of doing that and it will run perfectly well without anybody else's trying to manipulate things.
There is a lot of lip service paid to openness and trusting the people until it really comes time to do that and trust the people and then there is anxiety out the gazoo. The people know what they want and have said that a number of times and now the contractors--the true professionals in that group--are assessing the building very conscientiously, and I think you can trust that.
It may not be what you want to hear, or what we want to hear. But if the integrity of the process--if you mean what you say--then you will trust what they are saying and you will not squeegee them into doing what you want them to do or what somebody has told you you should do, because I think there is a lot of that going on, too. .
My goal of completeness and straight sequence for this post proved to be very daunting, probably for readers as much as for your faithful blogger. However, the record of the whole meeting may by now be on the township's website. If it is, I have no guesses about its quality. However, since the attacks on me and the blog claim that the blog is inaccurate (a charitable word for those claims), maybe you should look for yourself. By the time I sit through a meeting, taking notes, work on the blog, and then check against a recording for some things, I have had enough.
The November 20 trustees meeting followed the November 11 first meeting of the Building Assessment Committee. Your faithful blogger ended up being secretary pro tem for that meeting and will report on that in the blog--perhaps to some extent in this post. And now, away we go.
Old Business
John Festa: I wanted to talk about the assessment meeting at the school. The contractors seemed to be pretty excited and had the opportunity to walk through the building and make some notes and asked questions. I think their main goal was to get in their hands what we are trying to focus on. If we want to put Township offices in there, then they would have to do certain things for access and code items.
We went through the whole building. It turned out pretty well. I had an issue the way it was presented and thought about it and thought differently. [This is the first part of the elaborate CYA that trustee Festa crafted during this meeting.] I thought Todd Peetz said it would be contractors only. [Dead flat 180 degrees opposite of what Todd had always presented. Todd's approach always seemed to be that this was a highly democratic, participative community activity. The contractors were added in a memo from Jason, and then the idea slid into contractors only. At the October 22 meeting in the Civic Center which was intended as a kickoff meeting to give everyone a chance to hear the same thing, a number of residents wanted to be on the Building Assessment Committee. One person said that so many were interested because the building was still under threat (Larry Leitzow: "We gotta tear this building down") and without the building, all of the other committees were irrelevant. Another person at that meeting said that the word on the street was that two of the trustees wanted to get rid of it.]
John Festa, continuing: There were quite a few people there from the community who attended. It is pretty good that it be open and transparent. But the whole group was not there. [This is another cover story that will take a while to get to, but we will get there.] They may have felt left out.
I think all of the communication should be open and free flowing. [Blogger's emphasis. Now watch carefully what comes next.]
One of the contractors was complaining about one of the volunteer members following people with a camera and the person refused to stop. I am not going to mention any names, but I am going to make it clear that I am not going to tolerate that. [Public Comment will give the rest of the story on this little jewel.]
Continuing: Jerry Carlton showed up and provided a copy of what he spent on his building. I wanted you [Marie, probably] to get a copy of that. His building was $1,185,000. That only included the interior. He did not walk through the [school] building but offered his information.
[What Jerry spent on his building is completely irrelevant in talking about ours, for any number of reasons. There has been a concerted effort to scare the township residents away from the school building by raising issues about a "money pit" and bewailing taxpayer expense, and just wait until that one gets demolished. What Jerry spent is part of the scare tactics.]
Continuing: The next committee meeting is going to be on December 2 and I hope that everyone gets a chance to be there. I don't want to lose control of the process.
[Eh? The process was delegated to Todd Peetz as a way of taking the bias out of the township, as Jason put it. Todd understands process and facilitation. A process has to be kept working, because people can get off track with dazzling speed. So a process has to be managed. Lay you odds that what John Festa really doesn't want to lose control of is the outcome: to carry out his sponsor Larry's intentions regarding the building. He and one contractor are doing back flips to that end.]
Jason: It is a good idea to keep our finger on the pulse.
[Blogger: And how do you expect to do that, Jason, having been absent from both the 11/11 and 12/2 meetings? Management by hearsay is a poor substitute for knowledge.]
Continuing: Folks on the committee are volunteering their time to provide professional input and there can be too many cooks in the kitchen. If too many people are there it seems as if they [the contractors] are being micromanaged.
[OK. That last sentence is a terrific example of something that is usually hard to define about the way this bunch operates. You've heard the cliche that the best defense is a good offense? Well, a variation is that the best defense is to accuse someone else of what you are doing yourself. There are many examples of that swirling through these meetings and discussions, because we are approaching the end game about the school building. If this examination is being conducted with the intention of developing a good, reasonable plan for us to get into and use the building, nothing will have to be spun. If this was just another ploy on the way to doing something to rob the people of the township of something irreplaceable, Jason will stand exposed by his own acts and no amount of spin will cover it up. Why shift to Jason? He campaigned the first time on promising to work to get us into the old school building. He's the wheel horse on this disunified team. And he knows it.]
Jason, continuing: I have said to Todd Peetz that the residents not cause problems. I think the way things are going so far things seem to be OK. [To repeat: He hasn't been there. How can he say this?]
John Festa: I am not talking about just the assessment committee. I think all should be open and people should have the right to attend. [Blogger: We will come back to this as a separate post or a separate whole section, rather than an insertion. It's too freighted to do otherwise.]
That does not mean they should have input, but if they want to observe they should be able to. I think Todd Peetz should give us an e-mail about this. [Blogger: Actually, by tonight's meeting, the Building Assessment Committee already had chosen an extremely competent chair and co-chair, and Todd is able to let them handle how the committee works.]
Vic: Not all of the contractors were at that meeting and a couple of others were not able to make it. Cal Brant attended just to hear what was said. I think it was a good meeting and we are headed in the right direction. [Note: Cal had stopped at the school to see Ellie Monroe, who was there for the last evening potluck of the season, and realized that maybe it would be informative to sit in on the BAC meeting.]
* * * * * * * * * *
Blogger: This was a stopping point. This post now continues through public comment, one part of which was lengthy but significant.
Public Comment
Marie Stehli: I am speaking for Shirley Shuster, who asked me after the Chamber of Commerce meeting who is in charge of the roads; she is pleased with how the roads are being handled.
John Festa: What happened to the animal hospital [just east of Mantua Corners]?
Vic: They moved it in next to the Dollar Store.
Mark Hall had no comment this evening, and Steve Zielinski wished everyone a happy Thanksgiving.
Blogger: The exchange that follows was recounted in the previous post, but rather than chasing a reader back there, here it is again, with the rest of the story.
Dave Pollard, S.R. 82: First, what was the final disposition and resolution of the issue with the way the chairs were left piled up at the Civic Center after the clambake?
Jason: That was brought up at the last meeting. Did you not get enough information about that?
Dave: When I was helping put chairs away after the October 22 meeting, the chairs were just piled. The Ruritans have been holding that clambake for 20 years and they never left it like that.
Talking with John Festa after the meeting with Todd Peetz, I said, "There is no excuse for this."
He said, "I agree, Dave."
Dave: I said, "Whoever did leave these [like this] should lose their deposit."
He said, "I couldn't agree more."
Dave: I wondered what happened after that. He said that Ruritan members went over and straightened up when they were putting the flags up. If the building had been rented between times, it was a mess.
John Festa: I can answer that. The two Ruritans were doing volunteer work to put the flagpoles up. I brought up the fact that the chairs were left in poor shape. They went in and took care of it and straightened out the mess with no complaint. I had no problem with that.
Jason: As far as their deposit, we left that in Sue Skrovan's hands about what to do about the deposit.
Jason then asked Sue about the situation.
Sue: I am not really on the agenda, so I am not always sure whether I can speak. I gave the check to Marie. I am going to submit my additional hours for cleaning and that will probably come out to about half of the deposit. I could hold the whole deposit but rarely do. There was more than just the chairs. I let everyone know who rented in the meantime to be careful about the chairs.
John Festa: I never mentioned their deposit.
[Blogger: This is one of those times that sounds fairly reasonable until you get the rest of the story. A good piece of the issue here is whether policies are applied as consistently as possible or whether some people get special treatment. The work on the flagpoles was some time after the clambake. The policy is that once the keys have been turned in after a rental, that's it--the renters do not go back into the building.
Obviously, John Festa ignored the policy in order to do a favor.
The other piece of this is Jason's turning this over to Sue. He is so practiced at this kind of evasion of accountability that it sounds matter of fact.]
Next, Dave referred to the November 11 meeting of the Building Assessment Committee.
Dave: Also, regarding the committee meetings at the school building--those really are Todd's and the contractors' and whoever is in charge of each committee.
John Festa: I admit that--I am big enough to change my mind. [Blogger: Not his mind. His story.]
Dave: That's good, because the chair and co-chair and others made it clear that they wanted the meetings open. [Blogger: I was, as you know, at that meeting. The need for openness and transparency was repeated several times by both the chair--Dan Tillett-- and the co-chair--Eric Hummel. At that point, John Festa's statements suddenly changed, and that's the story he's maintaining now.]
John Festa: The trustees were never notified.
{Blogger: Oh? John Festa, at the October 22 meeting in the Civic Center, first tried to keep the next meeting out of the school until two professionals who were there insisted that the meeting be held on site. Then he said he could let everyone in. Vic attended the November 11 meeting, so he knew about it.]
[There was back and forth between Dave and John Festa about who knew about the meeting and who did not. I am of the opinion that the time and place were pretty well known, but that the intention was not to have a meeting open to all, regardless of all of the protestations in this meeting. John Festa's intense reaction at the beginning of the November 11 meeting at the school supports that view. I am not going to try to do a whole transcript of that, but the first five minutes or so are pretty telling.]
John Festa: Let's leave it at that. Every committee that is in this process has to be open. It has to be transparent and open. So if I find out that someone is meeting somewhere that is not open I am going to be upset with that.
John Festa: I am not going to lose control of this process. If there is something I don't lilke, I will say something.
Dave commented that the trustees had hired Todd to facilitate the process.
John Festa: A facilitator takes what the trustees have decided and makes it happen. He makes sure the pieces come together. He is not a dictator. He is a facilitator.
[Blogger: This is the most outrageous piece of spin I have ever heard--to even suggest that Todd has tried to dictate anything. Look at John Festa's comments about control and laying down the law and "not on my watch" kind of things, and then decide who is the dictator. Or would like to be.]
Dave: About the camera. I am the man who had the camera.
John Festa: I never mentioned your name.
Dave: I am a big enough man to say I am the person who had the camera. I never poked it in everyone's face. You and the electrical contractor didn't want to be recorded. The chair and vice chair both said they had no problem with it. I did not feel I stuck the camera in anyone's face. I may do it [videotape] again.
John Festa: Maybe all of those meetings should be taped.
[Blogger: OK, regardless of how this whole post may be to read, trying to get a transcript is enough to glaze the eyes of a marble statue. As Dave stated, the electrical contractor in the group said he didn't want to be recorded; Dave said he was merely panning across the room; subsequently, John Festa told Dave to turn off the camera. At that point, as I understand it, Dave told trustee Festa that both the chair and co-chair had no trouble with the camera being used. So John Festa's great claims about openness are pretty questionable.]
Blogger summary and note: After the remarks between Dave and John Festa about the Building Assessment Committee meeting, Dave commented on what he thought may happen about the video card for the camera that John Festa may get set up in this lifetime. There was some back and forth about that--that Dave expects that there will be a request for the card, not merely what is on it. During this conversation, John Festa made another pious remark about giving public records, as he has been trained to do in the meetings for that purpose. Right. In a subsequent post, you will see how well he follows that.
Carole Pollard, Allyn Road: I think quite a bit about that contractors' meeting has been spun. You did know about it, John Festa. I was gratified that the chair and co-chair and Todd Peetz were solid in their support of openness. Todd Peetz has supported that openness all along.
You can not by law prevent someone from recording a meeting, as I understand it. That is a lawyer's statement in regard to other meetings I have been involved in. Whatever it is, you can not prevent it. That is for audio recordings or video recordings.
I think that some of the things that have gone on here tonight were an attempt to re-write history, because what we heard tonight is not what we heard last Tuesday [November 11 at the Building Assessment Committee meeting].
There is another piece. Nobody else has the ability to facilitate a meeting. Todd does. He has done it successfully a number of times. I think that if this is going to go well, the trustees should not be managing it and controlling it. Todd is perfectly capable of doing that and it will run perfectly well without anybody else's trying to manipulate things.
There is a lot of lip service paid to openness and trusting the people until it really comes time to do that and trust the people and then there is anxiety out the gazoo. The people know what they want and have said that a number of times and now the contractors--the true professionals in that group--are assessing the building very conscientiously, and I think you can trust that.
It may not be what you want to hear, or what we want to hear. But if the integrity of the process--if you mean what you say--then you will trust what they are saying and you will not squeegee them into doing what you want them to do or what somebody has told you you should do, because I think there is a lot of that going on, too. .
Sunday, November 30, 2014
Trustees 11-20-14: Zoning Commission grilled again
Foreword to the Foreword: This post is now complete. The report on the 11-20 meeting is NOT complete. Between Old Business and Public Comment, there is a lot more to present, and there were in your blogger's mind good reasons for letting all of this ride as long as it has. This is another example of how the latest-at-the-top format wreaks havoc with chronological order. Oh, well. Them's the breaks"]
[Blogger Foreword: I arrived just after 7:50 and so missed some opening routine things but also was told that John Festa had taken issue with one word in the November 6 meeting minutes. In the section about the school use committees, the minutes read this way: "John Festa . . . is not happy about" [the composition of the one committee.
[I listened to the recording, in which John Festa said he did not think he said he was not happy about the one committee's makeup. Marie allowed as how he may not have said it, but he was not happy. I believe the wording was changed and will pay attention to that when the official minutes come out.
[Actually, "not happy" was mild. In fact, John Festa was livid about the fact that residents--horrors!--had actually gotten onto the Building Assessment Committee. More about that in public comment and later on in the blog.]
About $3100 was approved to purchase blades [shoes?] for the snow plows, since they wear out more quickly than other parts and will need to be replaced during the season..
Zoning Commission: John Festa asked Lynn Harvey about the September 11 Zoning Commission meeting and whether there was a recording. He also wanted to know if it has always been that way.
Lynn Harvey, Chairperson: It has been that way for quite a few years.
Question: Why?
Lynn: When I got on the board, meetings were recorded for the secretary and then lawyers got in on it and it was a bone of contention and so we discontinued it quite a while ago.
John Festa: I would like it for my own information and I am hearing a lot and reading a lot about open meetings.
Lynn: They are.
John Festa: As you know, we are facing litigation now [Blogger: That is from Dawn Pechman, I believe] and from what I am reading from the Attorney General what we do is not enough. Recommendations are being made from the state to get advance e-mail notices about meetings to anyone who wants them.
Lynn: We have not gotten anything about that. Is that an official ruling from the Attorney General?
John Festa: No, but there are some opinions on it. [Blogger: And are those valid legal, official opinions?] It seems as if every year they want more and more.
Lynn: Have you talked to Chris Meduri?
Answer: No, but from what I am reading and have been hearing, I think it would be good.
Lynn: There are good reasons to do that [not record] such as Dawn Pechman. She is not privileged to get information before board members. [Blogger: I believe Ms Pechman has asked the Mantua Village clerk for copies of the council packets even before they are in the hands of council members.]
[At this point John Festa made a disclaimer about not sticking up for Dawn Pechman, but said we just have to provide information. Because I am always looking down to write, I do not see various telltale things. I was told that when John Festa made the comment about not sticking up for Dawn, he flushed deeply. Interesting. There is reason to believe that the whole performance above was prompted by Dawn's demands to him.]
Lynn: You have to provide it in a reasonable amount of time. You do not have to provide it instantaneously or on an electronic device. We are open. We follow all the procedures. Some people think they should get them instantly and do unethical things behind our back.
John Festa: It is not up to us to determine--it is up to us to provide.
Vic: You do not have to provide what you don't have. If your source is paper, you don't have to create something [in a different form.] [Blogger: In the Sunshine Law trainings I have attended, it has been made clear that you do not have to create a new record, but only provide what you have in the same form that you have it.]
Lynn: As far as I know, we are doing what we are supposed to do.
John Festa: We can't assume. It is up to us to provide. It is up to us to get ahead of the game. [And during the past ten days leading up to this meeting, he has been behind the game. Badly.]
Continuing: I just wanted to bring it up.
Lynn: I was a little surprised the Attorney General has said that--I have not seen it.
[Blogger: Do you want to lay any bets on who has the facts and who is running a bluff here as an elaborate CYA?]
John Festa next brought up the issue of an OTARMA grant program that might pay for safety clothing for the road crew. There was discussion about that.
Vic suggested getting a list of needed items from Brian Tayerle and Dan.
Next, Vic reported that there had been some heating issues with the school building and it might be necessary to call someone in to do some programming so that various parts of the system could communicate with each other.
John Festa: I noticed that the motor is still not on the compressor. We actually appropriated that money in February. Why did it take so long?
Vic: I didn't have time.
John Festa: That isn't the reason for the problem?
Vic: No.
[Blogger: When Vic said he didn't have the time--remember that we now have one working trustee: the other two are managers--Larry Leitzow snorted, although not nearly as loudly as usual, and then morphed the snort into a cough. He just can't seem to control himself when he sees an opportunity to sneer at Vic.]
There is more to include in this post, most of it pretty routine, but it is not possible to do more at the moment. This post will be lengthened so that some pretty serious business about the school committees can be done as its own post with nothing extraneous.
Resuming here.
Vic continued: A resident on Winchell Road wants to know why there were not any chevrons there. I had to call Doug [Blogger: At the County Engineer's Department, I presume ] and have him meet with Brian Tayerle and see what is needed.
Jason: Were you able to get a digital version [of the cemetery price list] to Brent Simon?
Vic: No, but I will.
Continuing: I am trying to find out how they are doing on the shutters.
John Festa: Did we get the hardware for this building?
Vic: No. We can use what we have. He explained that what we need will cost about $60.00. [Blogger: I am going to assume here that some of what we need we have and can use, and we also need to buy something.]
Jason, about the jake brake request: A couple of local businesses who said they did not want to upset residents. [Some details were added to that.]
Right now there are four options:
1. Do nothing.
2. Do a speed study to lower the speed limit and post it.
3. Prohibit excessive retarder use.
4. No use of engine retarders at all.
Vic: There are some good things [about using the retarders] [but] the main thing is whether the trucks have mufflers. Then you get into a noise ordinance, and the biggest thing [then] is enforcement.
Jason: Revisit this at the next meeting.
Going on: Cemetery rules.
To John Festa: I think you had some questions on these.
John Festa: I had some questions and had a meeting with Jim Aldrich and we went through them. I would like for Jim to come back in and we can talk with him.
Vic: There is some stuff in there I would like to see explained.
John Festa: Newsletter and recording meetings--Dave Toth (Crestwood Superintendent) will follow through with the classes that do journalism and publishing.
Camera: I got a mount for the camera but it was bent when it arrived. It is still not mounted but is on a tripod.
[What followed was a rather lengthy discussion with Brent Simon about how to get the meetings onto the township website. I believe that, finally, Jason more or less told Brent to use his own judgment about what would work.
Jason: Also about the website: the county commissioners asked us to get a link from the emergency planning folks.
Zoning Warning Letter: Lynn Harvey commented that the Zoning Commission had looked at the letters at their last meeting and considered them OK.
Vic made a motion to accept the notice of violation and warning letter for the Zoning Commission. John Festa seconded. Unanimous.
Jason stated that it would go into use immediately.
[Blogger Foreword: I arrived just after 7:50 and so missed some opening routine things but also was told that John Festa had taken issue with one word in the November 6 meeting minutes. In the section about the school use committees, the minutes read this way: "John Festa . . . is not happy about" [the composition of the one committee.
[I listened to the recording, in which John Festa said he did not think he said he was not happy about the one committee's makeup. Marie allowed as how he may not have said it, but he was not happy. I believe the wording was changed and will pay attention to that when the official minutes come out.
[Actually, "not happy" was mild. In fact, John Festa was livid about the fact that residents--horrors!--had actually gotten onto the Building Assessment Committee. More about that in public comment and later on in the blog.]
About $3100 was approved to purchase blades [shoes?] for the snow plows, since they wear out more quickly than other parts and will need to be replaced during the season..
Zoning Commission: John Festa asked Lynn Harvey about the September 11 Zoning Commission meeting and whether there was a recording. He also wanted to know if it has always been that way.
Lynn Harvey, Chairperson: It has been that way for quite a few years.
Question: Why?
Lynn: When I got on the board, meetings were recorded for the secretary and then lawyers got in on it and it was a bone of contention and so we discontinued it quite a while ago.
John Festa: I would like it for my own information and I am hearing a lot and reading a lot about open meetings.
Lynn: They are.
John Festa: As you know, we are facing litigation now [Blogger: That is from Dawn Pechman, I believe] and from what I am reading from the Attorney General what we do is not enough. Recommendations are being made from the state to get advance e-mail notices about meetings to anyone who wants them.
Lynn: We have not gotten anything about that. Is that an official ruling from the Attorney General?
John Festa: No, but there are some opinions on it. [Blogger: And are those valid legal, official opinions?] It seems as if every year they want more and more.
Lynn: Have you talked to Chris Meduri?
Answer: No, but from what I am reading and have been hearing, I think it would be good.
Lynn: There are good reasons to do that [not record] such as Dawn Pechman. She is not privileged to get information before board members. [Blogger: I believe Ms Pechman has asked the Mantua Village clerk for copies of the council packets even before they are in the hands of council members.]
[At this point John Festa made a disclaimer about not sticking up for Dawn Pechman, but said we just have to provide information. Because I am always looking down to write, I do not see various telltale things. I was told that when John Festa made the comment about not sticking up for Dawn, he flushed deeply. Interesting. There is reason to believe that the whole performance above was prompted by Dawn's demands to him.]
Lynn: You have to provide it in a reasonable amount of time. You do not have to provide it instantaneously or on an electronic device. We are open. We follow all the procedures. Some people think they should get them instantly and do unethical things behind our back.
John Festa: It is not up to us to determine--it is up to us to provide.
Vic: You do not have to provide what you don't have. If your source is paper, you don't have to create something [in a different form.] [Blogger: In the Sunshine Law trainings I have attended, it has been made clear that you do not have to create a new record, but only provide what you have in the same form that you have it.]
Lynn: As far as I know, we are doing what we are supposed to do.
John Festa: We can't assume. It is up to us to provide. It is up to us to get ahead of the game. [And during the past ten days leading up to this meeting, he has been behind the game. Badly.]
Continuing: I just wanted to bring it up.
Lynn: I was a little surprised the Attorney General has said that--I have not seen it.
[Blogger: Do you want to lay any bets on who has the facts and who is running a bluff here as an elaborate CYA?]
John Festa next brought up the issue of an OTARMA grant program that might pay for safety clothing for the road crew. There was discussion about that.
Vic suggested getting a list of needed items from Brian Tayerle and Dan.
Next, Vic reported that there had been some heating issues with the school building and it might be necessary to call someone in to do some programming so that various parts of the system could communicate with each other.
John Festa: I noticed that the motor is still not on the compressor. We actually appropriated that money in February. Why did it take so long?
Vic: I didn't have time.
John Festa: That isn't the reason for the problem?
Vic: No.
[Blogger: When Vic said he didn't have the time--remember that we now have one working trustee: the other two are managers--Larry Leitzow snorted, although not nearly as loudly as usual, and then morphed the snort into a cough. He just can't seem to control himself when he sees an opportunity to sneer at Vic.]
There is more to include in this post, most of it pretty routine, but it is not possible to do more at the moment. This post will be lengthened so that some pretty serious business about the school committees can be done as its own post with nothing extraneous.
Resuming here.
Vic continued: A resident on Winchell Road wants to know why there were not any chevrons there. I had to call Doug [Blogger: At the County Engineer's Department, I presume ] and have him meet with Brian Tayerle and see what is needed.
Jason: Were you able to get a digital version [of the cemetery price list] to Brent Simon?
Vic: No, but I will.
Continuing: I am trying to find out how they are doing on the shutters.
John Festa: Did we get the hardware for this building?
Vic: No. We can use what we have. He explained that what we need will cost about $60.00. [Blogger: I am going to assume here that some of what we need we have and can use, and we also need to buy something.]
Jason, about the jake brake request: A couple of local businesses who said they did not want to upset residents. [Some details were added to that.]
Right now there are four options:
1. Do nothing.
2. Do a speed study to lower the speed limit and post it.
3. Prohibit excessive retarder use.
4. No use of engine retarders at all.
Vic: There are some good things [about using the retarders] [but] the main thing is whether the trucks have mufflers. Then you get into a noise ordinance, and the biggest thing [then] is enforcement.
Jason: Revisit this at the next meeting.
Going on: Cemetery rules.
To John Festa: I think you had some questions on these.
John Festa: I had some questions and had a meeting with Jim Aldrich and we went through them. I would like for Jim to come back in and we can talk with him.
Vic: There is some stuff in there I would like to see explained.
John Festa: Newsletter and recording meetings--Dave Toth (Crestwood Superintendent) will follow through with the classes that do journalism and publishing.
Camera: I got a mount for the camera but it was bent when it arrived. It is still not mounted but is on a tripod.
[What followed was a rather lengthy discussion with Brent Simon about how to get the meetings onto the township website. I believe that, finally, Jason more or less told Brent to use his own judgment about what would work.
Jason: Also about the website: the county commissioners asked us to get a link from the emergency planning folks.
Zoning Warning Letter: Lynn Harvey commented that the Zoning Commission had looked at the letters at their last meeting and considered them OK.
Vic made a motion to accept the notice of violation and warning letter for the Zoning Commission. John Festa seconded. Unanimous.
Jason stated that it would go into use immediately.
Friday, November 28, 2014
The School Bldg. Is Paid Off
At the November 19 meeting of the Mantua-Shalersville Chamber of Commerce meeting, John Festa for the first time that I remember mentioned the school building. Usually he acts as if it does not exist: never mentions it unless doing so is unavoidable and tries to shunt meetings away from it into other buildings.
He tried to schedule the first Building Assessment Committee meeting in the Township Hall or Civic Center, even though that committee would be studying the school. Two professionals who were at that meeting said, "Have it on site."
Among the other things John Festa reported at the Chamber meeting were these:
That the committees to analyze the school's needs and uses had been formed and the next stage could be looked forward to.
That the school building had been paid off, thus freeing up money for needed services in the township.
Did you really think, after three years of every conceivable manner of resistance on John Festa's part, that the over $30,000 per year now freed up would be used to make the building more usable? And that's not to mention Jason's five years of delays.
One of my friends has been chief operating officer of several companies and has rescued at least two through good management and correcting causes of problems, not their symptoms. He reads the blog and had two observations:
First, Jason is delaying
Second, he's not really very good at it, or it wouldn't be so obvious.
So, here we are, able to move forward but blocked by two people who are either smilingly or overtly hostile to the building--and who got elected because they convinced us they were people who could be trusted. Maybe they can be trusted by someone--but not by the people who believed that Jason would work to get us into the school and that John Festa was capable of living up to the appearance of his campaign materials.
He tried to schedule the first Building Assessment Committee meeting in the Township Hall or Civic Center, even though that committee would be studying the school. Two professionals who were at that meeting said, "Have it on site."
Among the other things John Festa reported at the Chamber meeting were these:
That the committees to analyze the school's needs and uses had been formed and the next stage could be looked forward to.
That the school building had been paid off, thus freeing up money for needed services in the township.
Did you really think, after three years of every conceivable manner of resistance on John Festa's part, that the over $30,000 per year now freed up would be used to make the building more usable? And that's not to mention Jason's five years of delays.
One of my friends has been chief operating officer of several companies and has rescued at least two through good management and correcting causes of problems, not their symptoms. He reads the blog and had two observations:
First, Jason is delaying
Second, he's not really very good at it, or it wouldn't be so obvious.
So, here we are, able to move forward but blocked by two people who are either smilingly or overtly hostile to the building--and who got elected because they convinced us they were people who could be trusted. Maybe they can be trusted by someone--but not by the people who believed that Jason would work to get us into the school and that John Festa was capable of living up to the appearance of his campaign materials.
What's Happening Now
A person would think, from the recent sparsity of posts, that not much was going on. HA!
The November 20 trustees meeting was vintage spin and, of course, will have its own post along with the rest of the story.
The first meetings of two of the committees analyzing the school building have been held: the Building Needs Assessment Committee on November 11, and the Building Utilization Committee on (I think) November 21.
Your faithful blogger got drafted to provide notes/minutes for the Building Assessment Committee meeting. It was the obvious call: there I was, with the pen flying across page after page. Someone else will do the minutes subsequently, since I am spread as thin as possible and still do a passable job on things.
Those notes/minutes will be reviewed at the December 2 Building Assessment Committee meeting. Until they have been reviewed and approved, they are not official and I am not going to say anything other than this:
Dan Tillett and Eric Hummel were nominated and agreed to serve as co-chairs. They were emphatic, several times over, that the whole process had to be open and completely transparent and that anyone could attend, although participation would be limited to committee members. In this case, it is the contractors, the attending residents being seen as volunteers. More on that after the December 2 meeting.
The next meeting was set for December 2, 2014, at 6:30 p.m. in the annex of the Mantua Center school building. One of the contractors saw no damage to the process by it being open to all who are interested, and your faithful blogger urges you to attend and see how this is working.
Blogger: If you attend, you will hear first hand what the issues, concerns, positions, and possibilities are. Considering all of the spin, propaganda, scare tactics, inflated numbers, and cynically deliberate wrong "information" about the school, getting it on the spot, for yourself, would be priceless.
Mark your calendars if you are interested and concerned about what is being proposed about OUR building. .
The November 20 trustees meeting was vintage spin and, of course, will have its own post along with the rest of the story.
The first meetings of two of the committees analyzing the school building have been held: the Building Needs Assessment Committee on November 11, and the Building Utilization Committee on (I think) November 21.
Your faithful blogger got drafted to provide notes/minutes for the Building Assessment Committee meeting. It was the obvious call: there I was, with the pen flying across page after page. Someone else will do the minutes subsequently, since I am spread as thin as possible and still do a passable job on things.
Those notes/minutes will be reviewed at the December 2 Building Assessment Committee meeting. Until they have been reviewed and approved, they are not official and I am not going to say anything other than this:
Dan Tillett and Eric Hummel were nominated and agreed to serve as co-chairs. They were emphatic, several times over, that the whole process had to be open and completely transparent and that anyone could attend, although participation would be limited to committee members. In this case, it is the contractors, the attending residents being seen as volunteers. More on that after the December 2 meeting.
The next meeting was set for December 2, 2014, at 6:30 p.m. in the annex of the Mantua Center school building. One of the contractors saw no damage to the process by it being open to all who are interested, and your faithful blogger urges you to attend and see how this is working.
Blogger: If you attend, you will hear first hand what the issues, concerns, positions, and possibilities are. Considering all of the spin, propaganda, scare tactics, inflated numbers, and cynically deliberate wrong "information" about the school, getting it on the spot, for yourself, would be priceless.
Mark your calendars if you are interested and concerned about what is being proposed about OUR building. .
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